An immense Khyber sword

[Norman McCormick]

Hi John,
My apologies but I have my serious doubts as to the authenticity of your Khyber knife with regard to its age. Some time ago another Forum member purchased an item from the same source which turned out to be 'less than he had hoped' although, apart from that particular one, I could/will not comment on any other items this dealer/collector has sold or has for sale. It probably does come from India but not I think from the first half of the 19thC. I sincerely hope I am wrong and I await further comments from other members with interest. If I am correct you will not be alone just joining a long list of collectors who have 'misconstrued' an item advertised by a supposed authority on the Net.
Regards,
Norman.

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

Hi John,
My apologies but I have my serious doubts as to the authenticity of your Khyber knife with regard to its age. ...snip... It probably does come from India but not I think from the first half of the 19thC.

Hi John and Norman
I will try to adjust it a bit, this first comment
ref. to A.C. Tirri in his book "Islamic Weapons"
most of "khyber knifes (to don't said ... all) recorded in his book, are declared 19th century
the Khyber knife displayed by John seems similar, at least by the blade, the handle, it's an other matter

I have read the following comments;
- grip are usually made of horn, bone, ivory
- blades of the better specimens are made of wootz steel
- some early versions have a slightly recurved blade
the handle from John's knife, doesn't match with general description

now where I'm backing my friend Norman, it's about "authenticity"
- unique antique Afghan Indo-Persian sword (as far as, they are hand made, all are "UNIQUE")
- surely this must have belonged to a chief or tribal leader (absolute extrapolation , without a beginning of prove)
- possibly an executionner's sword ? (pure phantasm)

in short, just sales pitches without any technical merit and without valid references

all the best

à +

Dom

[Rick]

I would simply observe that the pommel of this sword is in violation of the tenets of Islam; is it not ?

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Rick

I would simply observe that the pommel of this sword is in violation of the tenets of Islam; is it not ?

LOL
Rick in the caracter of, a .... "Great Ayatollah"
the Qajars, have had helmets with what it was supposed to be an "evil face"
as well as their mace, horned devil
in our days ... should be an other story

à +

Dom

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Rick

I would simply observe that the pommel of this sword is in violation of the tenets of Islam; is it not ?

Salaams Rick, Im missing something here.. . what is the violation ...? Ah you refer to the illustration of animal form ~ That would be the case in certain parts but not Indo Persian/ Afghan regions. The artform developed differently. Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ It looks like a real one to me ~ The wear looks uniform and the hilt seems right... I saw a load of these in Kabul (Chicken Street) Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Norman McCormick]

I saw a load of these in Kabul (Chicken Street) Ibrahiim al Balooshi. [/QUOTE]


Hi Ibrahiim,
This possibly reinforces my point?
My Regards,
Norman.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Norman McCormick

I saw a load of these in Kabul (Chicken Street) Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,
This possibly reinforces my point?
My Regards,
Norman.[/QUOTE]

Its possible~ Afghans make all sorts of old new stuff.. but looking at the wear it seems old enough to include in 19th C ...Its not overdone decoratively which tends to happen to tourist knives/swords. The sword blade marks are peculiar ... Ive not seen them before which is a plus..ie not a popular copied style of blademark... The wear looks consistant but without being able to closely observe it... I think it wise to hold a decision in the 50/50 region. In Chicken Street you can commission a brand new one for about the same price...
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Lew]

John

The hilt is all wrong never saw one like it. The sword itself lacks the quality often found in 19th century pieces. The hilt if was done in Afghanistan is not original and may have been added later in its life as a repair I think this would have been rehilted or came from Southern India due the monster head on the end of the hilt? Here are some examples of hilts for you to compare.

Lew

[Tim Simmons]

I never like to be quick on a verdict when it comes to non standard or unusual versions of weapons. Even in stones there are old kukries with tulwar handles. In northern Indian cross over happens. I think the handle and blade are a great match and each part are surley old. What I do have a problem with is the copper clout nail uesd to secure the handle. So I really hate to say it especially as I collect the odd stuff, this does not look right. You paid handsomely for this I would piont it out to the seller.

http://www.toolstation.com/shop/p84270

[Atlantia]

Hi John,

Sorry to also be a little negative about this piece.
I had a good look at that piece in person when it was sold back in February at auction.
I remember that there was some movement on the hilt and the general construction with the single copper rivet appearing to hold it all together seemed inadequate for the task.
Not to mention the atypical to say the least design of the hilt and general 'feel' made me wonder if it wasn't either a marriage, 'put together' or a late piece made to impress those who travel.

The blade looked to me to be possibly older than the hilt. The stamped 'decoration' looks to have been rubbed/worn/cleaned etc, suggesting age, while the crude bronze hilt seems to have remained relatively 'as cast'.

That said, in it's defence it certainly does have a 'look' to it, and it also has size on it's side!


ATB
Gene