Late Gothic Crossbows and Accouterments

cornelistromp · 13th June 2012, 08:14 AM

to classify a weapon as doubtful or falsification , is permitted but this must be done deliberately.
not because of a gut feeling or because such person has never seen it before. Oakeshott quote: It Means nothing That You never seen it before unless you have seen them all, those 100.000's.
if such a statement is not brought argued, it evokes the natural incomprehension and irritation. action is minus reaction! maybe we can restrict ourselves to the facts.

the crossbow under discussion post#153;
a reflex and recurved composite bow is probably the most efficient form. This bow is similar in shape to the 15th century ottoman short composite flight bow. This has the greatest cast ever known and is suitable for heavy and light arrows but also brings more energy to lighter arrows. see research Mr. Adam Karpowicz's

http://www.atarn.org/islamic/Perform...rkish_bows.htm

Crossbow post 153 and 156

Making Such a bow requires high skill and patience. Because of the long time required for the organic materials to dry it takes 1 to 3 years to make a composite bow. So I think we can definitively exclude a modern forgery.

although I like the crossbow of post # 156 better, I think that Both of them are original mid 15th C, South??? or Central Europe???, the parts are almost certainly.
it can be, but this is only an assumption that in the very early life of the crossbow post #153 the stock has been renewed.this is based on the rather square shape of the stock.

that other than the common materials have been used I do not see as an alarm signal, as long as it was available and it works in practice, it is simply just possible.

best,

David Jaumann · 13th June 2012, 10:04 AM

@Matchlock: Tank you for the pictures of the cranequins from Churburg!

Strong reflex bows are indeed the fastest ones! But I´m very much impressed that bows with thick cross sections, like the ones from the late 15th century shown in the last few posts can endure such a strong reflex. The material of bows with high cross sections is really much stressed. (That´s also the reason why english warbows with thick cross sections usually were made of yew wood.)

I have found one more wooden stock probably made of oak wood on the internet today. It was probably made in the 15th century and it is exposed in Hambourg. The trigger mechanism is very simple because the string is released with a "Zapfenschloss".

Here is thethe link:
http://folini.tikon.ch/reenactment/s...20Hamburg.jpeg

best wishes,

David

fernando · 13th June 2012, 02:09 PM

Hi David,
Links are not so good for the thread history and forum archives preservation.
Direct upload is what should preferably be done.
By the way, this crossbow stock you post, exhibited in Hamburg State Museum, is labeled as a Children's example

.

David Jaumann · 13th June 2012, 02:20 PM

Thank you for posting the picture! I tried at first posting it directely, but it didn´t work because the picture was to big. How can I scale down the sice of the pictures?

Yes, it is labeled as a children´s example!
I don´t have the mesurements, but I belive that the bow fixed on the stock was probably to heavy for a child, because the bow must have been quite broad. What do you think?

fernando · 13th June 2012, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Jaumann

Thank you for posting the picture! I tried at first posting it directely, but it didn´t work because the picture was to big. How can I scale down the sice of the pictures?

You have to do it with help of a resizing program, David.
Have you consulted this thread ?

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=14688

Matchlock · 13th June 2012, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Jaumann

@Matchlock: Tank you for the pictures of the cranequins from Churburg!

Strong reflex bows are indeed the fastest ones! But I´m very much impressed that bows with thick cross sections, like the ones from the late 15th century shown in the last few posts can endure such a strong reflex. The material of bows with high cross sections is really much stressed. (That´s also the reason why english warbows with thick cross sections usually were made of yew wood.)

I have found one more wooden stock probably made of oak wood on the internet today. It was probably made in the 15th century and it is exposed in Hambourg. The trigger mechanism is very simple because the string is released with a "Zapfenschloss".

Here is thethe link:
http://folini.tikon.ch/reenactment/s...20Hamburg.jpeg

best wishes,

David

Hi David,

Thank you so much for bringing this remarkable sample to our knowledge!

And 'Nando, thanks a lot for adding the photo and pointing out that the item was designed for a child.
I did some photoshopping and like to add for information that it is the City Museum (Stadtmuseum) Hamburg where it is on display.

Best,
Michl

Swordfish · 13th June 2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Hi David,

Thank you so much for bringing this remarkable sample to our knowledge!

And 'Nando, thanks a lot for adding the photo and pointing out that the item was designed for a child.
I did some photoshopping and like to add for information that it is the City Museum (Stadtmuseum) Hamburg where it is on display.

Best,
Michl

Unfortunately this 'remarkable' item is no medieval crossbow! This is a tiller of a whale-bow which were used in Norway until about c. 1900! See Josef Alm: European Crossbows.
Depending on the length maybe a children's whale-bow used as a toy.

Best

David Jaumann · 13th June 2012, 04:21 PM

Thank you for the wale-crossbow pictures, Swordfish!
It´s a really interesting one! I´m very amazed that crossbows were used for hunting until 1900.

I know a german drawing from about 1475, which shows a man sitting on a stool, who has a crossbow with a quite simular shape in his hands. It looks like he is shooting at a target.
This norwegian design thus seems to be existing since the 15th centery! And it presumably also was used in southern germany!

Swordfish · 13th June 2012, 07:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Jaumann

Thank you for the wale-crossbow pictures, Swordfish!
It´s a really interesting one! I´m very amazed that crossbows were used for hunting until 1900.

I know a german drawing from about 1475, which shows a man sitting on a stool, who has a crossbow with a quite simular shape in his hands. It looks like he is shooting at a target.
This norwegian design thus seems to be existing since the 15th centery! And it presumably also was used in southern germany!

Hi David,

I remember having seen this drawing somewhere, but can't remember what type of lock it had. If the drawing is from 1475, it is unlikely that it has this type of lock (or an outmoded type was depicted). During the second half of the 15th century all central European crossbows had a nut-lock. The Zapfenschloss type of lock was in use in the 14th century or early 15th century, but rarely. Attached a picture from the Swiss National Museum with a crossbow of this type.

Best

David Jaumann · 14th June 2012, 03:12 PM

Thanks for your help, Fernando! I have installed a resizing program and now it hopefully works.

So here´s the picture I described yesterday. The clothing of the man is typical for about 1475. The generally shape of the crossbow is the same as the wale hunting crossbow of the late 19th century. It even has a Zapfenschloss! I don´t think that there were many of these crossbows, but they existed also during the late 15th century!

best wishes,

David

13th June 2012, 02:09 PM	#3
fernando (deceased) Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Portugal Posts: 9,694	Hi David, Links are not so good for the thread history and forum archives preservation. Direct upload is what should preferably be done. By the way, this crossbow stock you post, exhibited in Hamburg State Museum, is labeled as a Children's example . Attached Images

14th June 2012, 03:12 PM	#10
David Jaumann Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 35	Thanks for your help, Fernando! I have installed a resizing program and now it hopefully works. So here´s the picture I described yesterday. The clothing of the man is typical for about 1475. The generally shape of the crossbow is the same as the wale hunting crossbow of the late 19th century. It even has a Zapfenschloss! I don´t think that there were many of these crossbows, but they existed also during the late 15th century! best wishes, David Attached Images

13th June 2012, 08:14 AM	#1
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	to classify a weapon as doubtful or falsification , is permitted but this must be done deliberately. not because of a gut feeling or because such person has never seen it before. Oakeshott quote: It Means nothing That You never seen it before unless you have seen them all, those 100.000's. if such a statement is not brought argued, it evokes the natural incomprehension and irritation. action is minus reaction! maybe we can restrict ourselves to the facts. the crossbow under discussion post#153; a reflex and recurved composite bow is probably the most efficient form. This bow is similar in shape to the 15th century ottoman short composite flight bow. This has the greatest cast ever known and is suitable for heavy and light arrows but also brings more energy to lighter arrows. see research Mr. Adam Karpowicz's http://www.atarn.org/islamic/Perform...rkish_bows.htm Crossbow post 153 and 156 Making Such a bow requires high skill and patience. Because of the long time required for the organic materials to dry it takes 1 to 3 years to make a composite bow. So I think we can definitively exclude a modern forgery. although I like the crossbow of post # 156 better, I think that Both of them are original mid 15th C, South??? or Central Europe???, the parts are almost certainly. it can be, but this is only an assumption that in the very early life of the crossbow post #153 the stock has been renewed.this is based on the rather square shape of the stock. that other than the common materials have been used I do not see as an alarm signal, as long as it was available and it works in practice, it is simply just possible. best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 13th June 2012 at 08:58 AM.

13th June 2012, 10:04 AM	#2
David Jaumann Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 35	@Matchlock: Tank you for the pictures of the cranequins from Churburg! Strong reflex bows are indeed the fastest ones! But I´m very much impressed that bows with thick cross sections, like the ones from the late 15th century shown in the last few posts can endure such a strong reflex. The material of bows with high cross sections is really much stressed. (That´s also the reason why english warbows with thick cross sections usually were made of yew wood.) I have found one more wooden stock probably made of oak wood on the internet today. It was probably made in the 15th century and it is exposed in Hambourg. The trigger mechanism is very simple because the string is released with a "Zapfenschloss". Here is thethe link: http://folini.tikon.ch/reenactment/s...20Hamburg.jpeg best wishes, David

13th June 2012, 02:20 PM	#4
David Jaumann Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 35	Thank you for posting the picture! I tried at first posting it directely, but it didn´t work because the picture was to big. How can I scale down the sice of the pictures? Yes, it is labeled as a children´s example! I don´t have the mesurements, but I belive that the bow fixed on the stock was probably to heavy for a child, because the bow must have been quite broad. What do you think?

13th June 2012, 04:21 PM	#8
David Jaumann Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Posts: 35	Thank you for the wale-crossbow pictures, Swordfish! It´s a really interesting one! I´m very amazed that crossbows were used for hunting until 1900. I know a german drawing from about 1475, which shows a man sitting on a stool, who has a crossbow with a quite simular shape in his hands. It looks like he is shooting at a target. This norwegian design thus seems to be existing since the 15th centery! And it presumably also was used in southern germany!