My Flyssa Daggers

Dom · 9th June 2012, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

If Jacob's Senegalese attribution of the dagger is correct, it might be explained by France's use of Senegalese Tirailleurs in Algeria in the 1940s and 1960s to put down the Algerian rebellions. Senegalese veterans could have taken them as souvenirs.

Emanuel ...

you have a large and fertile imagination

I'm agreed, that every thing, included the incredible, could be possible ...

- in 1940s the Senegalese Tirailleurs, present in Bir Hakeim - East Libya,
later have participated to the landing in Provence, and they went until Germania,
probability to carry with them a "souvenir" on long run (years)

- from 1954 to 62, they were in Algeria, as well as myself (61/62), but again,
I never saw during our operations a single "flissa" or "Algerian nimcha", main reason,
the population was too poor to hold some edged weapons like that, just kitchen knifes ...
otherwise sometimes, some very good automatic guns, what we have collected ... isn't it ... but never keep it

more realistic; THE TRADING ...
when it's not the smuggling (trabandists, in local language)

even in our days, as well as in past, since centuries, a very active and profitable business,
between; Algeria, Niger, Mali, and Mauritania (border with Senegal and Mali) guns, revolver's, machine-gun, RPJ, ammunitions, drugs, cigarettes ... etc ...
every weeks, in North Sahara (2001/04) I was buying Malb*ro RIM (Republic Islamic of Mauritania)
in very large quantity to supply American's camps (gas) in my charge, localized in Sahara

during the 6 years spent in Algeria; 1995/98 then 2001/04
I NEVER SAW A SINGLE FLISSA, long or short, even if nevertheless on weekly basic,
I went against all security measures, visit the Saharan city of Ouargla (outside of security perimeter) the shops of antiques,
I bought; ethnic jewelery, stone artifacts, never saw a dagger or sword ...
I have had talks with merchants (I speak Arabic), and asked from them edged weapons ... every time same answer; none ...
only thing, a day in Algiers, where I spent few nights, I found an old Tuareg arm dagger ("loï bo"), it's all what I found ... during all those years
the cat was skinny ... as we said here in France

my conclusion; these "flissa/nimcha" ornamented with crowie shells, are from the end of 19th,
transfered (caravan) from Sahara to African countries of Sub-Sahara,
then decorated by the merchants to comply with local fashion
this trading business, was been done before 1930, then the local situation became more critical
in 1930 the "pacification" of Sahara was accomplished, before, only Tuareg was the "masters", then,
their movements was restricted, deepest in South (as in our days ... )

less romantic, but may be more realistic, sorry to kill the poet who is residing in you

à +

Dom

Emanuel · 11th June 2012, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dom

Emanuel ...

you have a large and fertile imagination...sorry to kill the poet who is residing in you

à +

Dom

Haha pas de probléme Dom, and certainly no poetry behind my post. I did think about older trade but I had no information about that. The only thing I knew for sure connecting Senegal with Algeria were the 1940s-1960s missions.
If there was extensive trade between Kabylia and the Sahel in the 19th century, that would have passed through Touareg caravans until the 1930s as you say. Some examples of flyssa blades chould have been found in Touareg or Hausa fashion no?

Anyway, we do see a good number of thse Senegalese cowry shell flyssas so they really must have like them :shurg:

Incidentally, have you seen this website: http://www.algerie-ancienne.com/livres/Revue/revue.htm ?

It has hundreds of scanned books and publications covering most of the history of the area. I haven't had time to read even 1% of it...

Best,
Emanuel

Congoblades · 17th June 2012, 01:23 PM

Source; "Anthony C. Tirri - Islamic and native weapons of colonial Africa, 1800-1960"
No further information about the picture in the book

Ron0909 · 17th June 2012, 09:53 PM

What an opportunity to see these daggers! Thanks guys !These are two which came to me via an Uncle who served in Algeria in the 1950's. I was told that the top piece was the functional of the two whereas the bottom was a tourist piece. Indeed the top dagger is definitely more utilitarian with a much stronger blade, heavier handle etc. All I know of them is what was told to me by my father who had received them from my uncle. Apparently they had been confiscated during a search of the indigenous labourer's camps while they toiled in the bakeries. Odd story

kronckew · 18th June 2012, 05:53 AM

hi ron0909

the top one is a working 'bou saddi' or 'bou-saadi' knife from that region of algeria about 245 Km SSE from algiers. generally referred to as 'khodme'. it looks like it has the 'notch' near the blade tip we discuss in one of the below linked threads. note also the 'false edge' along the spine and the integral bolster. they are utility knives & similar ones are found over a broad range.

the bottom is a more decorative form for those who travel.

the working ones do also come decorated. see This Thread and This one too. those threads also have more links.

the difference between working and tourist versions are generally functional, ie. touristas have softer blade material, less hardening & temper, thinner thickness, and being cut from sheet steel are the same thickness along the blade ('real' working ones generally taper down in thickness from the bolster to the thinner tip. they are also frequently made from old files, and a section of cross hatching may be visible near or on the bolster to prove the steel). the grips and scabbard may be a bit more crude with more primitive decoration. for example, the grip/blade junction on the lower one of yours shows a certain lack of care in mounting it, and no sign of the integral bolster of the upper one. the carvings on the wood look simple and a bit carelessly placed, and the coloring is suspect, tho seen on some newer* functional ones grips. the basic wood scabbard is also atypical, a leather covered thin wood scabbard which partially covers the grip when fully inserted is more typical. while not designed for heavy use, the lower one would have been capable of killing someone, and would be better than nothing. quite properly confiscated if the camp was not allowed any weapons or tools as was likely during the period of civil unrest.

* - on this forum the 1950's is generally thought of as 'new'

Map:

17th June 2012, 01:23 PM	#3
Congoblades Member Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Belgium Posts: 171	Source; "Anthony C. Tirri - Islamic and native weapons of colonial Africa, 1800-1960" No further information about the picture in the book Attached Images

17th June 2012, 09:53 PM	#4
Ron0909 Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 5	What an opportunity to see these daggers! Thanks guys !These are two which came to me via an Uncle who served in Algeria in the 1950's. I was told that the top piece was the functional of the two whereas the bottom was a tourist piece. Indeed the top dagger is definitely more utilitarian with a much stronger blade, heavier handle etc. All I know of them is what was told to me by my father who had received them from my uncle. Apparently they had been confiscated during a search of the indigenous labourer's camps while they toiled in the bakeries. Odd story Attached Images

18th June 2012, 05:53 AM	#5
kronckew Member Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Room 101, Glos. UK Posts: 4,224	hi ron0909 the top one is a working 'bou saddi' or 'bou-saadi' knife from that region of algeria about 245 Km SSE from algiers. generally referred to as 'khodme'. it looks like it has the 'notch' near the blade tip we discuss in one of the below linked threads. note also the 'false edge' along the spine and the integral bolster. they are utility knives & similar ones are found over a broad range. the bottom is a more decorative form for those who travel. the working ones do also come decorated. see This Thread and This one too. those threads also have more links. the difference between working and tourist versions are generally functional, ie. touristas have softer blade material, less hardening & temper, thinner thickness, and being cut from sheet steel are the same thickness along the blade ('real' working ones generally taper down in thickness from the bolster to the thinner tip. they are also frequently made from old files, and a section of cross hatching may be visible near or on the bolster to prove the steel). the grips and scabbard may be a bit more crude with more primitive decoration. for example, the grip/blade junction on the lower one of yours shows a certain lack of care in mounting it, and no sign of the integral bolster of the upper one. the carvings on the wood look simple and a bit carelessly placed, and the coloring is suspect, tho seen on some newer* functional ones grips. the basic wood scabbard is also atypical, a leather covered thin wood scabbard which partially covers the grip when fully inserted is more typical. while not designed for heavy use, the lower one would have been capable of killing someone, and would be better than nothing. quite properly confiscated if the camp was not allowed any weapons or tools as was likely during the period of civil unrest. * - on this forum the 1950's is generally thought of as 'new' Map: Attached Images Last edited by kronckew; 18th June 2012 at 07:02 AM.