My Flyssa Daggers

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by Congoblades

Some more Flyssa decorated with cowry shells.
In the books "Jacob, Alain, 1974 - Armes blanches de l'Afrique noire" & "Anthony C. Tirri - Islamic and native weapons of colonial Africa, 1800-1960" are simular Flyssa shown, I don't have these books so I can't show them here, maby someone can add them here?
Like you can see in the picture, below the shells the scabbard and handle are already decorated.

Greets

Hello,
I like this curved flyssa variant.

It’s interesting to see that the brass handle treatment is still there under the leather and shells. Were this mine I would remove them down to the original underneath since they are a later addition. Is the original carved wooden scabbard still there?
If Jacob's Senegalese attribution of the dagger is correct, it might be explained by France's use of Senegalese Tirailleurs in Algeria in the 1940s and 1960s to put down the Algerian rebellions. Senegalese veterans could have taken them as souvenirs.

Emanuel

[Dom]

Originally Posted by Emanuel

If Jacob's Senegalese attribution of the dagger is correct, it might be explained by France's use of Senegalese Tirailleurs in Algeria in the 1940s and 1960s to put down the Algerian rebellions. Senegalese veterans could have taken them as souvenirs.

Emanuel ...
you have a large and fertile imagination
I'm agreed, that every thing, included the incredible, could be possible ...

- in 1940s the Senegalese Tirailleurs, present in Bir Hakeim - East Libya,
later have participated to the landing in Provence, and they went until Germania,
probability to carry with them a "souvenir" on long run (years)
- from 1954 to 62, they were in Algeria, as well as myself (61/62), but again,
I never saw during our operations a single "flissa" or "Algerian nimcha", main reason,
the population was too poor to hold some edged weapons like that, just kitchen knifes ...
otherwise sometimes, some very good automatic guns, what we have collected ... isn't it ... but never keep it

more realistic; THE TRADING ...
when it's not the smuggling (trabandists, in local language)
even in our days, as well as in past, since centuries, a very active and profitable business,
between; Algeria, Niger, Mali, and Mauritania (border with Senegal and Mali) guns, revolver's, machine-gun, RPJ, ammunitions, drugs, cigarettes ... etc ...
every weeks, in North Sahara (2001/04) I was buying Malb*ro RIM (Republic Islamic of Mauritania)
in very large quantity to supply American's camps (gas) in my charge, localized in Sahara
during the 6 years spent in Algeria; 1995/98 then 2001/04
I NEVER SAW A SINGLE FLISSA, long or short, even if nevertheless on weekly basic,
I went against all security measures, visit the Saharan city of Ouargla (outside of security perimeter) the shops of antiques,
I bought; ethnic jewelery, stone artifacts, never saw a dagger or sword ...
I have had talks with merchants (I speak Arabic), and asked from them edged weapons ... every time same answer; none ...
only thing, a day in Algiers, where I spent few nights, I found an old Tuareg arm dagger ("loï bo"), it's all what I found ... during all those years
the cat was skinny ... as we said here in France

my conclusion; these "flissa/nimcha" ornamented with crowie shells, are from the end of 19th,
transfered (caravan) from Sahara to African countries of Sub-Sahara,
then decorated by the merchants to comply with local fashion
this trading business, was been done before 1930, then the local situation became more critical
in 1930 the "pacification" of Sahara was accomplished, before, only Tuareg was the "masters", then,
their movements was restricted, deepest in South (as in our days ... )

less romantic, but may be more realistic, sorry to kill the poet who is residing in you

à +

Dom

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by Dom

Emanuel ...
you have a large and fertile imagination...sorry to kill the poet who is residing in you

à +

Dom

Haha pas de probléme Dom, and certainly no poetry behind my post. I did think about older trade but I had no information about that. The only thing I knew for sure connecting Senegal with Algeria were the 1940s-1960s missions.
If there was extensive trade between Kabylia and the Sahel in the 19th century, that would have passed through Touareg caravans until the 1930s as you say. Some examples of flyssa blades chould have been found in Touareg or Hausa fashion no?

Anyway, we do see a good number of thse Senegalese cowry shell flyssas so they really must have like them :shurg:

Incidentally, have you seen this website: http://www.algerie-ancienne.com/livres/Revue/revue.htm ?

It has hundreds of scanned books and publications covering most of the history of the area. I haven't had time to read even 1% of it...

Best,
Emanuel

[Congoblades]

Source; "Anthony C. Tirri - Islamic and native weapons of colonial Africa, 1800-1960"
No further information about the picture in the book

[Ron0909]

What an opportunity to see these daggers! Thanks guys !These are two which came to me via an Uncle who served in Algeria in the 1950's. I was told that the top piece was the functional of the two whereas the bottom was a tourist piece. Indeed the top dagger is definitely more utilitarian with a much stronger blade, heavier handle etc. All I know of them is what was told to me by my father who had received them from my uncle. Apparently they had been confiscated during a search of the indigenous labourer's camps while they toiled in the bakeries. Odd story

[kronckew]

hi ron0909

the top one is a working 'bou saddi' or 'bou-saadi' knife from that region of algeria about 245 Km SSE from algiers. generally referred to as 'khodme'. it looks like it has the 'notch' near the blade tip we discuss in one of the below linked threads. note also the 'false edge' along the spine and the integral bolster. they are utility knives & similar ones are found over a broad range.

the bottom is a more decorative form for those who travel.

the working ones do also come decorated. see This Thread and This one too. those threads also have more links.

the difference between working and tourist versions are generally functional, ie. touristas have softer blade material, less hardening & temper, thinner thickness, and being cut from sheet steel are the same thickness along the blade ('real' working ones generally taper down in thickness from the bolster to the thinner tip. they are also frequently made from old files, and a section of cross hatching may be visible near or on the bolster to prove the steel). the grips and scabbard may be a bit more crude with more primitive decoration. for example, the grip/blade junction on the lower one of yours shows a certain lack of care in mounting it, and no sign of the integral bolster of the upper one. the carvings on the wood look simple and a bit carelessly placed, and the coloring is suspect, tho seen on some newer* functional ones grips. the basic wood scabbard is also atypical, a leather covered thin wood scabbard which partially covers the grip when fully inserted is more typical. while not designed for heavy use, the lower one would have been capable of killing someone, and would be better than nothing. quite properly confiscated if the camp was not allowed any weapons or tools as was likely during the period of civil unrest.

* - on this forum the 1950's is generally thought of as 'new'

Map:

[DaveA]

Here is a large (24 inches) curved flyssa with a hilt similar to the one posted by Dom. I had been thinking of this as a nimcha… It, along with the small jimbaya, are shown being worn by a "desert wallah" c. late 19th century.

Separately I will posted some other flyssas.

[DaveA]

Here are three other flyssas in my collection for comparison.

[kronckew]

mine:

the curved one doesn't have a nimcha grip, it more like a std. flyssa.

[David R]

Hiya guys, this conversation and particulary Doms contribution has piqued my interest, so I have a question. I saw these 2 and dismissed them as 20thC tourist pieces, but now I wonder? They are not in an auction so I think they are ok to post.

[kronckew]

Originally Posted by David R

Hiya guys, this conversation and particulary Doms contribution has piqued my interest, so I have a question. I saw these 2 and dismissed them as 20thC tourist pieces, but now I wonder? They are not in an auction so I think they are ok to post.

how thick are the blades? that seems to be the main difference. the tourist 'wedding nimcha' ones, which apparently started late 19th c. tend to have thin flat blades (2mm-ish) and are more sharply curved than earlier ones with 4mm distal tapered blades (like mine above) and the engraving/inlays/scabbard carvings are not in traditional kabyle patterns. (see earlier post by emmanuel)

[Emanuel]

Originally Posted by David R

Hiya guys, this conversation and particulary Doms contribution has piqued my interest, so I have a question. I saw these 2 and dismissed them as 20thC tourist pieces, but now I wonder? They are not in an auction so I think they are ok to post.

Hi David,

I owned an identical "wedding nimcha" a few years ago. Like Kroncke says, the blades are uniformly flat, cut from ~2mm sheet, not forged, and the scabbard wire inlay is poor compared to the old carving. I had therefore also assumed they were early 20th century pieces. I'm happy to accept evidence that they're earlier. How they came about and who made them I don't know. Since they are all of a near-identical type I assume a common provenance.

Emanuel

[Dom]

Originally Posted by DaveA

along with the small jimbaya, are shown being worn by a "desert wallah" c. late 19th century.

Hi Dave
I look for "Desert wallah", because I never listen about a tribe or a Bedu group with "wallah" as name
but in Arabic, it's the contraction of "wallah al-azim" (swearing using God name)
in this case "Desert wallah" could (?) mean "I swear, Desert"

second thing who interrogated me ... your picture for the "Desert wallah"
- the man is dressed as a Palestinian, the "egal" and the "abaya" are symptomatic
- but the two edged weapons, aren't from that country, but absolutely from Magreb !!!

I haven't an rational explanation,
excepted if we considered this picture as a "artistic view" not as ethnographic document
anyway ... strange, I hope that some Arabic Bro. will come to help us

regards

à +

Dom

[A.alnakkas]

Hey guys,

The desert wallah thing seems to be the work of some orientalist. Indeed it seems that the person is wearing a Palastinian traditional uniform and a shibriya (small knife at the bottom)

[David R]

The picture looks like an early 20thC studio photo, possibly an actor in "role" or a tourist souvenier. These often catch people out as sometimes they are quite convincing. Two of those below are of Mr. R. Burton explorer and orientalist, and Mr Grundy an early tourist, ie in 1855. The third is explained by its caption.
In the UK "wallah" or "waller" is a vernacular term for just about any male person regardless of race. Like much of our slang it is of Army origin, deriving from local languages in the Eastern part of the Empire. Other examples, "bundook" for rifle,"chitty" for a document, and "burkoo" derived from bhulgar for a meal of prepared grain....usualy porridge oats.
Sorry to digress, but I think the existance of early tourist photo's are increasingly relevant to us collectors, especialy when they become references.

[chregu]

Hi
It is absolutely interesting! thanks for all the good posts. I'm a bit tired at the moment that I do not have as much free time to get here to operate in the forum. But it will surely come again quieter times! smile.
beautiful Sunday evening

[DaveA]

Hi Dom,

"Desert Wallah" is a pejorative name for British high society men who would have an "adventurous" visit to British empire territorities in N. Africa. The term was used by local British administrators and more experienced travelers. In order to bolster their tales of daring-do, Desert Wallahs often brought back weapons, garb, and sometimes made photos such as this one in my collection. That is one reason well preserved edged weapons from the region can sometimes be found in family estate auctions. It also accounts for the odd ethnographic mixture of clothing and weapons in the picture!

David

Originally Posted by Dom

Hi Dave
I look for "Desert wallah", because I never listen about a tribe or a Bedu group with "wallah" as name
but in Arabic, it's the contraction of "wallah al-azim" (swearing using God name)
in this case "Desert wallah" could (?) mean "I swear, Desert"

second thing who interrogated me ... your picture for the "Desert wallah"
- the man is dressed as a Palestinian, the "egal" and the "abaya" are symptomatic
- but the two edged weapons, aren't from that country, but absolutely from Magreb !!!

I haven't an rational explanation,
excepted if we considered this picture as a "artistic view" not as ethnographic document
anyway ... strange, I hope that some Arabic Bro. will come to help us

regards

à +

Dom