New Keris/Keris baru

[Paul Duffy]

Alan, Ariel,
I also thank both of you for an interesting discussion.I came to collecting keris as a collector of weapons.My interest was in the skill of working with metals to produce a piece that was so interesting.The blade was the centre piece of the keris,but the sheath and handle also came together to produce a work of art.
After seeing many examples I am still fascinated by the skill involved in planning and making a keris.I think this has been part of my fascination, which has led me into studying the culture and history of Indonesia.There are many segements of the culture and their religion which draw me into looking for examples of keris.
This then leads to wanting more information on how the keris fitted in with the society of Java,and the islands in earlier times.
Alan,your example of the elderly collector here in Australia is perfect.A good man, and a wonderful collection of keris and edged weapons.He was also a willing mentor for young collectors, and I agree he wasn't interested in studying the culture.
I don't know if he saw his collection as comprising works of art,but neither did he appreciate the music of Bob Dylon or Bill Frisell.
I must practice loading photos onto the site,the illustrations and comments about fakes etc have been interesting.

[ariel]

Are Groneman's and Holstein's books a good source of education for a novice?

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

Are Groneman's and Holstein's books a good source of education for a novice?

I am not familiar with the Holstein book, but i think Groneman's book (the latest re-issue) is well work acquiring. It is extremely well produced and illustrated. That is not to say that it is completely accurate, but i have yet to find any book about keris completely accurate.
It's starting to sound like you might be getting more serious about keris collecting Ariel.

[A. G. Maisey]

I've never seen Holstein so I cannot comment. Groneman I find interesting from a historical perspective.

For somebody with an interest in the culture of the keris I believe that the best book to begin with is Visible and Invisible Realms-Margaret J.Wiener.

For somebody more interested in the physical entity itself, The World of the Javanese Keris-Garrett and Bronwen Solyom, and The Kris-An Earthly Approach to a Cosmic Symbol-David van Duuren.

For somebody who wishes to explore the fields of knowledge which embrace the keris:- Krisses-A critical Bibliography-David van Duuren.

Here is a link to a reading list that is perhaps as good as anywhere to begin the accumulation of printed matter dealing with the keris:-

http://www.kerisattosanaji.com/kerisinformation.html

you will find publishing details of the books I mention in this list.

[ariel]

David:
"It's starting to sound like you might be getting more serious about kerns collecting Ariel."


I got 2 interesting ( I think) ones that I showed here, and 3 old ones, Javanese, that were tangguh-ed by somebody as being very old ( down to 14th century!), which may not impress you :-), and they were discussed here years ago, and.... who knows:-)

[David]

Originally Posted by ariel

David:
"It's starting to sound like you might be getting more serious about kerns collecting Ariel."


I got 2 interesting ( I think) ones that I showed here, and 3 old ones, Javanese, that were tangguh-ed by somebody as being very old ( down to 14th century!), which may not impress you :-), and they were discussed here years ago, and.... who knows:-)

....hmmm....does that mean i might be right?
(and boy do i hate this auto-correct spelling...thinks when i write "keris" that i mean "kerns" )

[ariel]

Originally Posted by David

....hmmm....does that mean i might be right?
(and boy do i hate this auto-correct spelling...thinks when i write "keris" that i mean "kerns" )

Maybe it is the keris itself that is trying to tell you something? You know, they have magical powers :-)

[rasdan]

Thank you Alan for the kind explanation on the importance of tangguh system in evaluating the quality of a Javanese keris.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

For somebody with an interest in the culture of the keris I believe that the best book to begin with is Visible and Invisible Realms-Margaret J.Wiener.
For somebody more interested in the physical entity itself, The World of the Javanese Keris-Garrett and Bronwen Solyom, and The Kris-An Earthly Approach to a Cosmic Symbol-David van Duuren.
For somebody who wishes to explore the fields of knowledge which embrace the keris:- Krisses-A critical Bibliography-David van Duuren.

From my own limited perspective, i concur...

[ariel]

David:

"....and boy do i hate this auto-correct spelling...thinks when i write "keris" that i mean "kerns"


Maybe it is the keris itself is trying to tell you something? You know, they have magical powers :-)

[ariel]

Originally Posted by ariel

Are Groneman's and Holstein's books a good source of education for a novice?

I got the Groneman's book. Essentially, it is the translation of the original one into English, with all the original illustrations. Only the editors provided a lot of additional gorgeous color photographs from several Dutch museums and from private collectors. I guess the meaning of a "good keris" became a bit more understandable to me :-)

They are all with provenance, all came to the Netherlands al least in the beginning of the 20th century, with totally intact blades, a lot of gold, gems and even diamonds etc.

What is surprising to me, and totally consistent with what Alan said earlier, none have even the slightest attempt to pinpoint their age. Being a collector of other weapons, I am totally flabbergasted: such an omission would be unthinkable in the field of Middle Eastern/Indian/ Caucasian weapons, and AFAIK, the Chinese/Japanese/ and even European collectors would agree with me.

Oh boy.... You the "kerisologists" are way, way different from the rest of us.

I am still very uneasy with the idea of collecting ethnic weapons that were manufactured yesterday simply because they were made according to old traditions, or have a neatly carved handle, or a scabbard made of a particularly good wood, or putting a 500 y.o. weapon on the same scale of importance ( not necessarily monetary, but historic) with a 100 y.o. one....



Taking into account that keris was largely a ceremonial/magic object, perhaps what I am collecting is " historical weapons", while you are into " indonesian art/craft/ethnography". That was exactly what Groneman was trying to preserve when he wrote his articles.


Different languages, different criteria..... Fascinating...

[A. G. Maisey]

Yes Ariel, the way you put it is certainly the way it would be seen by somebody who did not have a Javanese based understanding of the keris.

I'm going to try to clarify this seeming conundrum a little, but I cannot speak for all others here, so I'm guessing that there will be some remarks additional to mine.

Groneman wrote in the 19th century, and at that time collectors in the western world of Europe and the UK were flat out collecting exotic Eastern edged weaponry, and a lot of this eastern edged weaponry was still brand new at that time. It didn't seem to matter to those 19th century gentlemen whether the peshkabz, khanjar , tulwar, or keris was old or new, the main thing was it was exotic, and they wanted to drape their libraries with exotic Eastern weaponry.

At that time---19th century--- these swords and daggers were still being used to hack up the soldiers of Good Queen Vicki. They were current ethnographic weaponry.

I recently had the opportunity to closely examine a number of very early provenanced keris in European museums. Keris which had provenance going back in some cases to around 1600 or before. Some of those keris were still in pristine, just off the work-bench condition. These 300 year old plus keris originally belonged to people like the Medicis and the Danish Royal family. Seems they had no problem with having brand new keris in the curiosity cabinets.

The current preference of many weapons collectors for "old" can probably be explained by the fact that the weapons they collect relate to a past age, thus they are antique collectors with a preference for weaponry, rather than weapons collectors per se.

Fast forward to 2012. In Jawa and other keris bearing societies the keris is still current ethnographic weaponry, just as those other sharp pointy things were a couple of hundred years ago. However, they seldom get used to hack up pale skinned visitors these days. It is my experience that although people in western societies who collect keris do not discriminate against keris from the current era, many do have a preference for older keris. Most collections that I know of are a mixture of old keris and new keris, with the criteria usually being personal liking for a piece, followed by personal affordability.

But here is the problem with good, old keris:- there quite simply were never very many of them, and with the passing of time they have become less and less, and the truly old, truly good keris that are left today are almost all locked into a closed circle of elite collectors. When they change hands for actual money, the sums involved are frightening. Vastly more than most collectors in the Western world could, or would pay for a keris. So, if a collector wants a really good keris that is artistically pleasing he does not have any option other than to buy current era production, similarly if he wants perfect examples of complex pamor he must buy current era production; if he wants complicated dhapur, he must buy current era production.

On the other hand, if he is satisfied with worn, second rate keris that have somewhere between no and very little artistic excellence, provided they are old, then he can satisfy his collecting needs for "old", without a lot of difficulty.

Most people do appreciate good, old keris. It doesn't matter if those people live in Jawa or in a Western society, but good old keris are few and far between and they cost. Bigtime.

It is not accurate to say that keris collectors do not take any account of the concept of "old". They do, but the way in which they think of "old" is related to tangguh, not to time as you understand it. Javanese indigenous history is a mixture of probable fact and definite myth. This history is recorded in court histories called babads, it is often very difficult to determine where fact stops and myth or legend begins. These babads are related to the era of the ruler and kingdom in which they were produced, so if we were to ask a Javanese keris expert how "old" a particular keris was, and that keris was late 16th century from Central Jawa, the Javanese keris expert would not say "late 16th century, Central Jawa", he would say "Mataram Senopaten", provided the characteristics matched his idea of what a Mataram Senopaten keris looked like.

This system of classification runs all the way back 8th, 9th, 10th century, but here is the catch:- the further back in time you go, the less likely the believed age is to accurately relate to the actual time passed. Eventually you get back to a mythical era and location, and this is the ultimate test of the true believer.

Many, if not most Javanese keris experts take the supposed age based on tangguh with a grain of salt, but the precise age is not relevant, what is relevant is the supportable classification, and a part of the classification has to do with relative age. This means that an old tangguh classification will always relate to an old keris, and a new tangguh classification will always relate to a more recent keris, but the relationship is relative, not truly able to be defined in terms of years as you understand a year.

The Javanese and Balinese traditional mind still functions as a magic world-view in traditional matters.

So age is important, its just that it is thought of in a different way to the way in which you think of age.

Recent keris do not compete with old keris, but if a collector wants excellence then he really has no choice but to buy recent. When he does this he is collecting ethnographic art, which is as valid right now as it was 300 years ago when the Medicis were also collecting ethnographic art --- amongst other things, mainly power and money..

I apologise for the length of this post. I do hope you managed to get through it and that it has perhaps provided a slightly more rational position from which to consider the study and/or collection of keris.

[David]

Thanks Alan, you summed that up nicely...

[ariel]

Thanks, Alan, for a nice explanation. Every old thing in the world was new at some time. Even you and I were young many years ago :-)


As you said
"The Javanese and Balinese traditional mind still functions as a magic world-view in traditional matters.

So age is important, its just that it is thought of in a different way to the way in which you think of age."

That's exactly what I meant: there is a profound difference between the rational Western mind and the more "magic-oriented" Oriental one. Nothing derogatory here, just the fact. And of all the "Oriental" traditions, the Indonesian view of weapons is perhaps the most " magical" one. Even in India, Japan, or the Middle East newly-made weapons are not considered " authentic". Well, perhaps the Japanese are still willing to pay big money for newly-made swords of exceptional quality, but even they venerate only the really antique ones.

Collecting Kerises requires a dramatic reformatting of one's mind and scale of values.... Tough....
BTW, does the same applies to any other Indonesian weapons? Or is it only the keris that stands alone?

[Jean]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Groneman wrote in the 19th century...

Yes, he certainly did but his article "Der Kris der Javaner" was published between 1910 and 1913 so well into the 20th century and only few decades before my time....
As David said, you wrote an excellent summary of the keris collector's dilemma, thanks!

[A. G. Maisey]

I don't think that we can use comparisons of attitudes to other weaponry to try to find similarities with the keris. A newly made keris can still be authentic, but it depends upon the aspect under consideration. It is even possible for a newly made keris to be regarded in the same, or similar light to a pusaka keris, if that newly made keris has incorporated a part of a pusaka keris into its forging, or if the essence of a missing pusaka keris is called into its newly made vessel. This is perhaps what happened with the pusakas that disappeared after the sacking of Kartosuro and then reappeared again in Surakarta some years later.

When we set out to collect, or to study, the keris, there are at least two different roads that we can take:- we can simply collect and focus on the object itself, or we can attempt to understand the object. To understand the object we probably need to gain at least a minimal understanding of the culture surrounding it. However, if we progress past that level of minimal understanding it is possible that we may find that our rational Western mind is in fact no more rational than the mind of the people who are a part of keris culture.

Our Western rationality has developed within the framework of our society, and within that framework it is realistic to accept that the way we think and reason is rational. However, our Western rationality is to a large degree irrational and thus non-functional in a society that is based upon different precepts and concepts.

Some of the values that apply to the keris also apply to other Indonesian weaponry, however, the keris is unique in its position as a societal icon.

[Bjorn]

Just to revive this thread on keris kemardikan I'd like to share a photo I came across on Toni Junus' Facebook page.


This keris won the SNKI Keris Award for The World in 2010.

Name: Kanjeng Kyai Singa Kura
Dhapur: Singa Kura Bener
Pamor: Jarot Asem

My main attraction to this keris is due to its slender shape and intriguing pamor, which is at the same time simple and complex. I think I would have liked the blade better without the singa-kura gandik, but that's personal preference. Does anyone know if there is any symbolism behind the lion-tortoise combo or is it just for show?

Hopefully other members will have more interesting modern keris to share.