Nicely carved Madurese hilt with Chinese Motif

BluErf · 3rd September 2005, 02:59 AM

Here're some links to images of Chinese dragons.

http://www.mythicalrealm.com/images-...gonRampent.jpg
http://www.mythicalrealm.com/images-...dragonroof.jpg
http://www.mythicalrealm.com/images-2/chineseleili.jpg
http://www.crystalinks.com/chinadragons.html

Chinese dragons have deer antler-like horns, a large bulbous nose with a pair of long feelers, a generous beard and 'sideburns', and a high forehead. Long and lanky, with 4 limbs with large claws. No wings. Sometimes, they have a flame-like tail.

So I don't think its a Chinese dragon on the hilt. In fact, I thought the dragon was wearing a European crown. Dutch influence?

In the 2nd hilt, the floral motifs are arranged in framed panels, which reminds me of baroque European aesthetics. However, I thought the floral motifs are distinctively N. Coast Java/Madura/Bali though, with that 'flame' or 'leaf' motif. See motif on hilt which I believe comes from coastal Java.

The swastika panels at the bottom of both hilts do have some Chinese look to it, like the pierced-through panels under the eaves of the roof in some Chinese architecture. But then again, the swastika probably originated from India.

I think Chinese influences exist in the keris arts. The best example I know is of a Javanese keris with Chinese lacquer work on the sheath, depicting a Chinese house, a couple of Chinese people and a Chinese pine tree (ya, how many 'Chinese' am I going to use here

). This keris graces the cover of Karsten Jensen's keris book.

The other example is in the Invincible Keris. There is a Malay keris with an ivory parrot hilt. That scabbard has Chinese mother-of-pearl inlaid square motifs and striped sheath stem.

Another example I remember is the 'curly-worly' Chinese cloud motif sometimes found on textiles and the repoussed silver covering of pedang hilts coming from Cirebon. Anyone has pictures?

The last possible example I remember is in John's collection. Its an ivory hilt with deep carved floral panels. Maybe if John would post pictures?

RSWORD · 3rd September 2005, 04:45 AM

Thanks for all the feedback thusfar. Rick, thank you for sharing your example. I like your thoughts about the bird possibly representing the Pheonix. I have a feeling that your and my example do exhibit strong Chinese influences.

Philip,

Yes, I remember that shop well. Lot's of goodies but the darn guy wouldn't sell me anything I was interested in. I do remember you talking about that double Keris and how much you kick yourself for not picking it up.

In regards to the dragon, I am still not convinced that it is not Chinese inspired. I am attaching a picture of a scabbard mount from a Chinese Peidao in which the dragon shares more similarities with this keris than not. Also, the swastika motif and rope motif suggest strong Buddhist elements. Either it is a strange amalgamation of styles carved onto the handle for no reason other than visual appeal or it had some intent to be recognized by individuals who would recognize said symbols. I am also attaching a picture of a scabbard of a Chinese Jian in which the entire scabbard has been carved with the swastika motif, amongst other things.

John · 3rd September 2005, 08:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluErf

The last possible example I remember is in John's collection. Its an ivory hilt with deep carved floral panels. Maybe if John would post pictures?

Certainly Blu.

I'm no expert in Chinese motifs but for the sake of this interesting discussion, the swastika is commonly seen in Chinese motifs (but also Japanese, Korean etc?) as a Buddhist element (also bearing in mind the Buddhist Borobudur in Java is a millenium old) but also an import to the Chinese and the rest as BluErf also surmised and the strange dragon with wing is not something I've seen in anything Chinese thus far but there may be the remote possibility of the strange amalgamation of things...

John · 4th September 2005, 05:14 AM

Rsword, just looking at the swastika design in isolation, the Chinese influence/architecture of design appears to be there, I have to now agree. In looking at the swastika on the scabbard again, the lines look uncannily similar and about 45 degrees gradient similar to that of the hilts so I guess you're right in saying you're not convinced the Chinese influence ain't there based on the similarities with your example. But again, another superficial view on my part.

nechesh · 4th September 2005, 07:36 AM

I would like to refer you all to the book Spirit of Wood. Examples of the use of both the swastika and the endless knot pattern in Malay culture can be seen there. Pg. 45 shows ventilation panels in the walls of Masjid Wadi Husin at Telok Manok. The caption states that "the swastika was commonly adopted in Malay culture as a symbol of protection." Pg. 78 also shows another wall from this ancient mosque which also incorporates the "endless knot" as a window panel.
BTW, swastikas are to be found in cultures all around the world, including Amerindian. While it is most likely the swastika was imported into the Malay world it should be noted that it seems to have developed independently in many parts of the world.Generally it held the same symbolism as a solar energy for good luck and protection where ever it developed.
For what it is worth i also agree that the dragon on the first hilt does not look like any Chinese dragon i have ever seen. I would also think the swastika made it's way to the Malay world through Hindu influences more than Chinese. Certainly Chinese influences have made themselve evident, but i don't think this is the case here.

RSWORD · 5th September 2005, 09:33 PM

David

Thank you for the referral and the additional information. You mentioned the design shows up in wall panels several times in the book but are there any keris hilts with this particular design. While I admit I have not handled a ton of keris over the years I have yet to see this pattern in a keris but would love to know there were dozens of examples out there with it so prominently featured as this keris. Also, I appreciate the differences of opinion in regards to the dragon. For me, I am trying to piece together all of the decorative elements on the hilt to better understand it. What do you believe the dragon and the bird represents along with the other decoration?

3rd September 2005, 02:59 AM	#1
BluErf Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Singapore Posts: 1,180	Here're some links to images of Chinese dragons. http://www.mythicalrealm.com/images-...gonRampent.jpg http://www.mythicalrealm.com/images-...dragonroof.jpg http://www.mythicalrealm.com/images-2/chineseleili.jpg http://www.crystalinks.com/chinadragons.html Chinese dragons have deer antler-like horns, a large bulbous nose with a pair of long feelers, a generous beard and 'sideburns', and a high forehead. Long and lanky, with 4 limbs with large claws. No wings. Sometimes, they have a flame-like tail. So I don't think its a Chinese dragon on the hilt. In fact, I thought the dragon was wearing a European crown. Dutch influence? In the 2nd hilt, the floral motifs are arranged in framed panels, which reminds me of baroque European aesthetics. However, I thought the floral motifs are distinctively N. Coast Java/Madura/Bali though, with that 'flame' or 'leaf' motif. See motif on hilt which I believe comes from coastal Java. The swastika panels at the bottom of both hilts do have some Chinese look to it, like the pierced-through panels under the eaves of the roof in some Chinese architecture. But then again, the swastika probably originated from India. I think Chinese influences exist in the keris arts. The best example I know is of a Javanese keris with Chinese lacquer work on the sheath, depicting a Chinese house, a couple of Chinese people and a Chinese pine tree (ya, how many 'Chinese' am I going to use here ). This keris graces the cover of Karsten Jensen's keris book. The other example is in the Invincible Keris. There is a Malay keris with an ivory parrot hilt. That scabbard has Chinese mother-of-pearl inlaid square motifs and striped sheath stem. Another example I remember is the 'curly-worly' Chinese cloud motif sometimes found on textiles and the repoussed silver covering of pedang hilts coming from Cirebon. Anyone has pictures? The last possible example I remember is in John's collection. Its an ivory hilt with deep carved floral panels. Maybe if John would post pictures? Attached Images

3rd September 2005, 04:45 AM	#2
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	Thanks for all the feedback thusfar. Rick, thank you for sharing your example. I like your thoughts about the bird possibly representing the Pheonix. I have a feeling that your and my example do exhibit strong Chinese influences. Philip, Yes, I remember that shop well. Lot's of goodies but the darn guy wouldn't sell me anything I was interested in. I do remember you talking about that double Keris and how much you kick yourself for not picking it up. In regards to the dragon, I am still not convinced that it is not Chinese inspired. I am attaching a picture of a scabbard mount from a Chinese Peidao in which the dragon shares more similarities with this keris than not. Also, the swastika motif and rope motif suggest strong Buddhist elements. Either it is a strange amalgamation of styles carved onto the handle for no reason other than visual appeal or it had some intent to be recognized by individuals who would recognize said symbols. I am also attaching a picture of a scabbard of a Chinese Jian in which the entire scabbard has been carved with the swastika motif, amongst other things. Attached Images

4th September 2005, 05:14 AM	#4
John Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Land below the wind Posts: 135	Rsword, just looking at the swastika design in isolation, the Chinese influence/architecture of design appears to be there, I have to now agree. In looking at the swastika on the scabbard again, the lines look uncannily similar and about 45 degrees gradient similar to that of the hilts so I guess you're right in saying you're not convinced the Chinese influence ain't there based on the similarities with your example. But again, another superficial view on my part.

4th September 2005, 07:36 AM	#5
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	I would like to refer you all to the book Spirit of Wood. Examples of the use of both the swastika and the endless knot pattern in Malay culture can be seen there. Pg. 45 shows ventilation panels in the walls of Masjid Wadi Husin at Telok Manok. The caption states that "the swastika was commonly adopted in Malay culture as a symbol of protection." Pg. 78 also shows another wall from this ancient mosque which also incorporates the "endless knot" as a window panel. BTW, swastikas are to be found in cultures all around the world, including Amerindian. While it is most likely the swastika was imported into the Malay world it should be noted that it seems to have developed independently in many parts of the world.Generally it held the same symbolism as a solar energy for good luck and protection where ever it developed. For what it is worth i also agree that the dragon on the first hilt does not look like any Chinese dragon i have ever seen. I would also think the swastika made it's way to the Malay world through Hindu influences more than Chinese. Certainly Chinese influences have made themselve evident, but i don't think this is the case here.

5th September 2005, 09:33 PM	#6
RSWORD Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Greensboro, NC Posts: 1,084	David Thank you for the referral and the additional information. You mentioned the design shows up in wall panels several times in the book but are there any keris hilts with this particular design. While I admit I have not handled a ton of keris over the years I have yet to see this pattern in a keris but would love to know there were dozens of examples out there with it so prominently featured as this keris. Also, I appreciate the differences of opinion in regards to the dragon. For me, I am trying to piece together all of the decorative elements on the hilt to better understand it. What do you believe the dragon and the bird represents along with the other decoration?