New Keris/Keris baru

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2012, 11:12 AM

Jean, I gave very careful consideration to the question of naming the maker, and I have decided that it is in the best interests of all that I do not. This man was for a while possibly the best pandai keris of conventional dhapur in the modern era, however, he has become somewhat disinterested in his work in recent years, and to avoid any annoyance to him, or backlash to myself, it is probably best to leave him unnamed.

However I can name the person who made the pamor material. It was me. That's how I can be certain that it is meteoritic pamor:- I made the block of meteoritic material that went into it.

In fact there is no absolutely guaranteed way to identify meteoritic material. In my opinion it probably has a slightly prickly feel, but who is to say that some other material does not have a similar feel?

We all know that the use of meteoritic material in Central Jawa was tied to the Prambanan meteorite. I seem to recall that Pak Djeno (Alm.) made a blade using meteoritic material, probably from the Prambanan meteorite, so it hasn't really stopped, its just a long time between drinks. Maybe it slowed down during the PBX era.It is probable that Jayasukadgo still made some meteoritic blades.

As far as I am aware, no meteoritic blades were ever made in Jawa Tengah except for people who were connected to either Surakarta or Jogjakarta karaton, and who had access to the karaton empus. All this business about meteorite has been gone over many, many times. Bronson is the best source.

Jean · 30th May 2012, 11:55 AM

Alan,
Thank you for your reply and I understand your reasons for not naming the maker, but congratulations to him and to you!

Thank you also for killing the myth about meteoritic iron which is used by many sellers but without any proven evidence.
Best regards

dbhmgb · 30th May 2012, 12:59 PM

Alan,

Thank you for the pictures of that fantastic keris.

It's fascinating how the use of meteoritic iron is so tightly woven into the legend of the keris. It's all these myths and legends that, even though they're mostly debunked, make the keris such an alluring object.

Dan

David · 30th May 2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you also for killing the myth about meteoritic iron which is used by many sellers but without any proven evidence.

Jean, i think that the myth about meteoric iron and keris was killed years ago for those with ears to hear, but that will never stop unscrupulous or ignorant sellers from continuing to use this misinformation to hawk their wares.

If you have not seen this extensive thread from back in 2005 you will probably find it of interest.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...eteorite+keris

Jean · 30th May 2012, 05:40 PM

David,
Thanks for referring me to this interesting thread, I do not remember it as I was still a kid at that time

Regards

David · 30th May 2012, 06:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

David,
Thanks for referring me to this interesting thread, I do not remember it as I was still a kid at that time

Regards

Yep, i thought it might be from before your time...

Rick · 31st May 2012, 02:08 AM

Since the thread started with one .

This work always gives me great pleasure when it is examined/studied.

The wrongko is like a thunderstorm portrayed in woodgrain .

I will call this a 'good keris' ; I'm proud to be its keeper in my lifetime .
My Son will receive it someday .

rasdan · 31st May 2012, 06:30 AM

G'day Alan,

When I started out collecting, I go for a quality old keris. Quality comes first since if we screwed up on its age, we still have quality. Nowadays, quality and age still plays a role, but there's a bit of an addition. I just keep what I like; for a keris may have all the quality and age, but if i didn't like it, I wont keep it. What others think about it does not matter since I'm the one that will be looking at it day after day. Well, keris collecting had started to sound like living with our significant other isn't it?

I found both yours and Rick's keris very handsome looking keris and I love them both. My questions are:

1. How do we measure quality? For instance, your keris have a different ratio of sorsoran width to its length when compared to Rick's keris. The sekar kacang is also different. (It's entirely different probably) How does the shape of the ricikan justifies quality?

2. If we take tangguh as age, how can we apply the quality measures to keris with different tangguh? If we take tangguh as style of keris, can we still use the same parameters?

My questions are probably circling around the same thing. It reflects how confused I am right now.

Best regards,
Rasdan

Jean · 31st May 2012, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rick

This work always gives me great pleasure when it is examined/studied.

The wrongko is like a thunderstorm portrayed in woodgrain .

I will call this a 'good keris' ; I'm proud to be its keeper in my lifetime .
My Son will receive it someday .

Hi Rick,
I agree that this is a very good keris kamardikan, may be the work from Mpu Sukamdi?

Regards

Timo Nieminen · 31st May 2012, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In fact there is no absolutely guaranteed way to identify meteoritic material. In my opinion it probably has a slightly prickly feel, but who is to say that some other material does not have a similar feel?

It can be done well enough for practical purposes, if the material hasn't been heated enough to change the original crystal structure, and the meteorite has distinctive crystal structure from very slow cooling (i.e., Widmanstätten structure). E.g., this study of iron blades in Shang bronze axes. Widmanstätten structure is supposed to be able to survive cold working, and moderate heat. 1000C is too much.

A nice paper on the topic of trying to identify meteoric iron: E. Photos (1989): The question of meteoritic versus smelted nickel‐rich iron: Archaeological evidence and experimental results, World Archaeology, 20:3, 403-421.

A. G. Maisey · 31st May 2012, 09:17 AM

Timo

Yes, no problem at all identifying meteoritic material before its been used. None.

We're talking about identifying meteoritic material after it has been forge welded probably no less than 8 or 10 times, then combined with some other ferric material, then forge welded to a core, forged to shape, and carved.

This type of ID is a slightly different ball game.

Rasdan

I can answer your questions, and they are good and valid questions, but I'm probably going to use a lot of words in doing so. I don't have time right at the moment, but I'll post an answer as soon as I do have time to write it.

In the meantime, try to answer these questions:-

Are the sculptures of Michelangelo Buonarroti generally regarded as work of exceptionally high quality?

If yes, why is this so?

31st May 2012, 02:08 AM	#7
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	Another Kelengan Baru Since the thread started with one . This work always gives me great pleasure when it is examined/studied. The wrongko is like a thunderstorm portrayed in woodgrain . I will call this a 'good keris' ; I'm proud to be its keeper in my lifetime . My Son will receive it someday . Attached Images

31st May 2012, 06:30 AM	#8
rasdan Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Kuala Lumpur Posts: 369	G'day Alan, When I started out collecting, I go for a quality old keris. Quality comes first since if we screwed up on its age, we still have quality. Nowadays, quality and age still plays a role, but there's a bit of an addition. I just keep what I like; for a keris may have all the quality and age, but if i didn't like it, I wont keep it. What others think about it does not matter since I'm the one that will be looking at it day after day. Well, keris collecting had started to sound like living with our significant other isn't it? I found both yours and Rick's keris very handsome looking keris and I love them both. My questions are: 1. How do we measure quality? For instance, your keris have a different ratio of sorsoran width to its length when compared to Rick's keris. The sekar kacang is also different. (It's entirely different probably) How does the shape of the ricikan justifies quality? 2. If we take tangguh as age, how can we apply the quality measures to keris with different tangguh? If we take tangguh as style of keris, can we still use the same parameters? My questions are probably circling around the same thing. It reflects how confused I am right now. Best regards, Rasdan Last edited by rasdan; 31st May 2012 at 06:45 AM.

30th May 2012, 11:12 AM	#1
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Jean, I gave very careful consideration to the question of naming the maker, and I have decided that it is in the best interests of all that I do not. This man was for a while possibly the best pandai keris of conventional dhapur in the modern era, however, he has become somewhat disinterested in his work in recent years, and to avoid any annoyance to him, or backlash to myself, it is probably best to leave him unnamed. However I can name the person who made the pamor material. It was me. That's how I can be certain that it is meteoritic pamor:- I made the block of meteoritic material that went into it. In fact there is no absolutely guaranteed way to identify meteoritic material. In my opinion it probably has a slightly prickly feel, but who is to say that some other material does not have a similar feel? We all know that the use of meteoritic material in Central Jawa was tied to the Prambanan meteorite. I seem to recall that Pak Djeno (Alm.) made a blade using meteoritic material, probably from the Prambanan meteorite, so it hasn't really stopped, its just a long time between drinks. Maybe it slowed down during the PBX era.It is probable that Jayasukadgo still made some meteoritic blades. As far as I am aware, no meteoritic blades were ever made in Jawa Tengah except for people who were connected to either Surakarta or Jogjakarta karaton, and who had access to the karaton empus. All this business about meteorite has been gone over many, many times. Bronson is the best source.

30th May 2012, 11:55 AM	#2
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Alan, Thank you for your reply and I understand your reasons for not naming the maker, but congratulations to him and to you! Thank you also for killing the myth about meteoritic iron which is used by many sellers but without any proven evidence. Best regards

30th May 2012, 12:59 PM	#3
dbhmgb Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 112	Alan, Thank you for the pictures of that fantastic keris. It's fascinating how the use of meteoritic iron is so tightly woven into the legend of the keris. It's all these myths and legends that, even though they're mostly debunked, make the keris such an alluring object. Dan

30th May 2012, 05:40 PM	#5
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	David, Thanks for referring me to this interesting thread, I do not remember it as I was still a kid at that time Regards

31st May 2012, 09:17 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Timo Yes, no problem at all identifying meteoritic material before its been used. None. We're talking about identifying meteoritic material after it has been forge welded probably no less than 8 or 10 times, then combined with some other ferric material, then forge welded to a core, forged to shape, and carved. This type of ID is a slightly different ball game. Rasdan I can answer your questions, and they are good and valid questions, but I'm probably going to use a lot of words in doing so. I don't have time right at the moment, but I'll post an answer as soon as I do have time to write it. In the meantime, try to answer these questions:- Are the sculptures of Michelangelo Buonarroti generally regarded as work of exceptionally high quality? If yes, why is this so?