New Keris/Keris baru

tunggulametung · 27th May 2012, 05:57 PM

Very true, that someone can act in accordance with their means and I'm agree that culture is a dynamic entity (but to what extent before we can't recognize it anymore?) In a society when you get frowned because you own a keris and get frowned by not having a cell phone? What next, should in another decade or two we see a smart phone representing a bridegroom when he cannot attend the wedding? Okay maybe it's not going to happen

or that I'm a bit too far with my analogy, but believe me that keris culture in the society is not as alive as it look on the superficial level, I'm sorry, I really hope that I'm wrong.

Anyway, good keris (old or new)? I believe that everybody here who has been long enough collecting/studying keris knows what good keris are, maybe we can't put it in words, we don't have to, but there's something beyond words that exist, good keris. Lastly as a keris enthusiast I do hope to see more good taste keris kamardikan in the future, be it inspired by the classic or contemporary formulated.

A. G. Maisey · 27th May 2012, 11:58 PM

Tunggalametung, you very probably move in slightly different circles to the ones I move in. I have not at any time experienced any level of disapproval from the people I know in Jawa because of my involvement with keris. True, I'm not an Indonesian, but I am certainly sufficiently well established in my own areas of the society that I do get honest reactions from people, a courtesy that is very often not offered to a bule.

Sure, in much of Indonesia, not just Jawa, there is a movement towards a life style that varies from tradition, but this is not universally true.

As for "good keris". Well, on a personal basis every keris that a keris fancier buys is a good keris for that person, or he would not have bought it, but appraised on an objective basis, it may not be so. There have been a great many words spent on this subject, and I feel that there is still not a definitive answer.

A. G. Maisey · 29th May 2012, 11:55 PM

We've been talking a lot about quality, I thought it was about time we had a look at what I mean by quality.

This keris was made in Solo about 20 years ago. It is, I believe, the first keris made in modern times using meteoritic pamor

Battara · 30th May 2012, 03:21 AM

What a beautiful and impressive piece, thanks Alan for posting this.

Jean · 30th May 2012, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

We've been talking a lot about quality, I thought it was about time we had a look at what I mean by quality.

This keris was made in Solo about 20 years ago. It is, I believe, the first keris made in modern times using meteoritic pamor

Hello Alan,
Excellent kris indeed, can you tell us who was the maker?

Regarding meteoritic iron, I assume that the materials is now imported from abroad and when did the use of local meteoritic pamor disappear? (I mean except in the kratons).
Unless the subject was already raised in another thread, how do you identify meteoritic pamor? Besides the look and touch feeling, some Indonesians claim that they can feel a sort of electric wave by passing the hand just above the blade, what do you think about it? I tried it with a match but am not sure about the results although I am an amateur dowser.....

Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 30th May 2012, 11:12 AM

Jean, I gave very careful consideration to the question of naming the maker, and I have decided that it is in the best interests of all that I do not. This man was for a while possibly the best pandai keris of conventional dhapur in the modern era, however, he has become somewhat disinterested in his work in recent years, and to avoid any annoyance to him, or backlash to myself, it is probably best to leave him unnamed.

However I can name the person who made the pamor material. It was me. That's how I can be certain that it is meteoritic pamor:- I made the block of meteoritic material that went into it.

In fact there is no absolutely guaranteed way to identify meteoritic material. In my opinion it probably has a slightly prickly feel, but who is to say that some other material does not have a similar feel?

We all know that the use of meteoritic material in Central Jawa was tied to the Prambanan meteorite. I seem to recall that Pak Djeno (Alm.) made a blade using meteoritic material, probably from the Prambanan meteorite, so it hasn't really stopped, its just a long time between drinks. Maybe it slowed down during the PBX era.It is probable that Jayasukadgo still made some meteoritic blades.

As far as I am aware, no meteoritic blades were ever made in Jawa Tengah except for people who were connected to either Surakarta or Jogjakarta karaton, and who had access to the karaton empus. All this business about meteorite has been gone over many, many times. Bronson is the best source.

Jean · 30th May 2012, 11:55 AM

Alan,
Thank you for your reply and I understand your reasons for not naming the maker, but congratulations to him and to you!

Thank you also for killing the myth about meteoritic iron which is used by many sellers but without any proven evidence.
Best regards

dbhmgb · 30th May 2012, 12:59 PM

Alan,

Thank you for the pictures of that fantastic keris.

It's fascinating how the use of meteoritic iron is so tightly woven into the legend of the keris. It's all these myths and legends that, even though they're mostly debunked, make the keris such an alluring object.

Dan

David · 30th May 2012, 01:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Thank you also for killing the myth about meteoritic iron which is used by many sellers but without any proven evidence.

Jean, i think that the myth about meteoric iron and keris was killed years ago for those with ears to hear, but that will never stop unscrupulous or ignorant sellers from continuing to use this misinformation to hawk their wares.

If you have not seen this extensive thread from back in 2005 you will probably find it of interest.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...eteorite+keris

Timo Nieminen · 31st May 2012, 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

In fact there is no absolutely guaranteed way to identify meteoritic material. In my opinion it probably has a slightly prickly feel, but who is to say that some other material does not have a similar feel?

It can be done well enough for practical purposes, if the material hasn't been heated enough to change the original crystal structure, and the meteorite has distinctive crystal structure from very slow cooling (i.e., Widmanstätten structure). E.g., this study of iron blades in Shang bronze axes. Widmanstätten structure is supposed to be able to survive cold working, and moderate heat. 1000C is too much.

A nice paper on the topic of trying to identify meteoric iron: E. Photos (1989): The question of meteoritic versus smelted nickel‐rich iron: Archaeological evidence and experimental results, World Archaeology, 20:3, 403-421.

A. G. Maisey · 31st May 2012, 09:17 AM

Timo

Yes, no problem at all identifying meteoritic material before its been used. None.

We're talking about identifying meteoritic material after it has been forge welded probably no less than 8 or 10 times, then combined with some other ferric material, then forge welded to a core, forged to shape, and carved.

This type of ID is a slightly different ball game.

Rasdan

I can answer your questions, and they are good and valid questions, but I'm probably going to use a lot of words in doing so. I don't have time right at the moment, but I'll post an answer as soon as I do have time to write it.

In the meantime, try to answer these questions:-

Are the sculptures of Michelangelo Buonarroti generally regarded as work of exceptionally high quality?

If yes, why is this so?

29th May 2012, 11:55 PM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	We've been talking a lot about quality, I thought it was about time we had a look at what I mean by quality. This keris was made in Solo about 20 years ago. It is, I believe, the first keris made in modern times using meteoritic pamor Attached Images

27th May 2012, 05:57 PM	#1
tunggulametung Member Join Date: Jan 2007 Posts: 238	Very true, that someone can act in accordance with their means and I'm agree that culture is a dynamic entity (but to what extent before we can't recognize it anymore?) In a society when you get frowned because you own a keris and get frowned by not having a cell phone? What next, should in another decade or two we see a smart phone representing a bridegroom when he cannot attend the wedding? Okay maybe it's not going to happen or that I'm a bit too far with my analogy, but believe me that keris culture in the society is not as alive as it look on the superficial level, I'm sorry, I really hope that I'm wrong. Anyway, good keris (old or new)? I believe that everybody here who has been long enough collecting/studying keris knows what good keris are, maybe we can't put it in words, we don't have to, but there's something beyond words that exist, good keris. Lastly as a keris enthusiast I do hope to see more good taste keris kamardikan in the future, be it inspired by the classic or contemporary formulated.

27th May 2012, 11:58 PM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Tunggalametung, you very probably move in slightly different circles to the ones I move in. I have not at any time experienced any level of disapproval from the people I know in Jawa because of my involvement with keris. True, I'm not an Indonesian, but I am certainly sufficiently well established in my own areas of the society that I do get honest reactions from people, a courtesy that is very often not offered to a bule. Sure, in much of Indonesia, not just Jawa, there is a movement towards a life style that varies from tradition, but this is not universally true. As for "good keris". Well, on a personal basis every keris that a keris fancier buys is a good keris for that person, or he would not have bought it, but appraised on an objective basis, it may not be so. There have been a great many words spent on this subject, and I feel that there is still not a definitive answer.

30th May 2012, 03:21 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	What a beautiful and impressive piece, thanks Alan for posting this.

30th May 2012, 11:12 AM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Jean, I gave very careful consideration to the question of naming the maker, and I have decided that it is in the best interests of all that I do not. This man was for a while possibly the best pandai keris of conventional dhapur in the modern era, however, he has become somewhat disinterested in his work in recent years, and to avoid any annoyance to him, or backlash to myself, it is probably best to leave him unnamed. However I can name the person who made the pamor material. It was me. That's how I can be certain that it is meteoritic pamor:- I made the block of meteoritic material that went into it. In fact there is no absolutely guaranteed way to identify meteoritic material. In my opinion it probably has a slightly prickly feel, but who is to say that some other material does not have a similar feel? We all know that the use of meteoritic material in Central Jawa was tied to the Prambanan meteorite. I seem to recall that Pak Djeno (Alm.) made a blade using meteoritic material, probably from the Prambanan meteorite, so it hasn't really stopped, its just a long time between drinks. Maybe it slowed down during the PBX era.It is probable that Jayasukadgo still made some meteoritic blades. As far as I am aware, no meteoritic blades were ever made in Jawa Tengah except for people who were connected to either Surakarta or Jogjakarta karaton, and who had access to the karaton empus. All this business about meteorite has been gone over many, many times. Bronson is the best source.

30th May 2012, 11:55 AM	#7
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Alan, Thank you for your reply and I understand your reasons for not naming the maker, but congratulations to him and to you! Thank you also for killing the myth about meteoritic iron which is used by many sellers but without any proven evidence. Best regards

30th May 2012, 12:59 PM	#8
dbhmgb Member Join Date: Apr 2012 Location: Maryland, USA Posts: 112	Alan, Thank you for the pictures of that fantastic keris. It's fascinating how the use of meteoritic iron is so tightly woven into the legend of the keris. It's all these myths and legends that, even though they're mostly debunked, make the keris such an alluring object. Dan

31st May 2012, 09:17 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,019	Timo Yes, no problem at all identifying meteoritic material before its been used. None. We're talking about identifying meteoritic material after it has been forge welded probably no less than 8 or 10 times, then combined with some other ferric material, then forge welded to a core, forged to shape, and carved. This type of ID is a slightly different ball game. Rasdan I can answer your questions, and they are good and valid questions, but I'm probably going to use a lot of words in doing so. I don't have time right at the moment, but I'll post an answer as soon as I do have time to write it. In the meantime, try to answer these questions:- Are the sculptures of Michelangelo Buonarroti generally regarded as work of exceptionally high quality? If yes, why is this so?