Very nice Moro dagger for comment!!!

falcon · 2nd September 2005, 06:05 PM

how much! ! ! ! !

nechesh · 2nd September 2005, 06:36 PM

Nice gunong Philkid. It looks to me to have genuine age, late 19th-early 20thC. The metal work is nice. The only reason i can think for the bubbling on the sheath metal is that perhaps the gold color is not the main metal itself, but some kind of finish or plate. The copperish metal on the hilt could swaasa, but it could also just be copper. The other metal looks like brass to me since it appears slightly tarnished which gold would not do. Nice ivory.

Falcon, welcome to the forum. I'm sure a moderator would tell you, but since i'm here

this is not a buyer/seller forum, it is purely for study and discussion. We do have a swap forum for such things. I look foward to hearing your opinions and viewpoints on various blades and subjects.

Rick · 2nd September 2005, 06:51 PM

Re the bubbling on the scabbard fixtures . If this decoration is constructed as Battara described so well in post #19 of Ceremonial Kris :

" Gold plating - not real plating, but as Cato uses the word. Here is why I hesitate to call it plating. Plating is a 20c invention that places a thin gold film of only a few microns on a surface (thus plating is going out of style in many jewelry stores here in the US). The layers of precious metals Moros used were an actual layer (32 gauge) of material fused to a base metal like brass or copper (more commonly). This is what Cato is really refering to in his book, though I take issue with the term he uses. Again, this was mainly used by the Maguindanao and Maranao. I have actually measured this in the Maranao and Maguindanao pieces I have. The technology is not that difficult because it took only a furnace (or bellows) to heat up the materials together to a point where they would start to fuse before melting. However, this would take precise control and experience. This technique is still used today around the world. "Gold filled" is the closest commercial equivelant in that a thin layer of gold is fused to a base metal of brass. The brass is thicker than the gold, but the gold is much thicker than a film a few microns thin, and that is why it wears much better. The Moro/Indonesian/Malay fusing of precious metal is thicker still, and is more economical than solid thin bands of pure metal. My kris that I posted has the swaasa bands of 32-30 gauge bonded (fused) to a thicker base of copper. "

The bubbling may be a result of either poor bonding or degradation of the base metal .
Anyway it seems like a very nice older example of gunong .

Falcon I'm pretty sure you were joking with the offer to buy ; if you are really interested in obtaining an example of this weapon they appear fairly frequently on ebay although few examples as nice as this one show up .

Another thing ; if you do end up purchasing one with an ivory pommel you would do well to buy the item in the USA as you may encounter importation problems from other countries ivory being a protected material under the CITES agreement .

2nd September 2005, 06:05 PM	#1
falcon Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1	dagger how much! ! ! ! !

2nd September 2005, 06:36 PM	#2
nechesh Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Cincinnati, OH Posts: 940	Nice gunong Philkid. It looks to me to have genuine age, late 19th-early 20thC. The metal work is nice. The only reason i can think for the bubbling on the sheath metal is that perhaps the gold color is not the main metal itself, but some kind of finish or plate. The copperish metal on the hilt could swaasa, but it could also just be copper. The other metal looks like brass to me since it appears slightly tarnished which gold would not do. Nice ivory. Falcon, welcome to the forum. I'm sure a moderator would tell you, but since i'm here this is not a buyer/seller forum, it is purely for study and discussion. We do have a swap forum for such things. I look foward to hearing your opinions and viewpoints on various blades and subjects.

2nd September 2005, 06:51 PM	#3
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,365	Re the bubbling on the scabbard fixtures . If this decoration is constructed as Battara described so well in post #19 of Ceremonial Kris : " Gold plating - not real plating, but as Cato uses the word. Here is why I hesitate to call it plating. Plating is a 20c invention that places a thin gold film of only a few microns on a surface (thus plating is going out of style in many jewelry stores here in the US). The layers of precious metals Moros used were an actual layer (32 gauge) of material fused to a base metal like brass or copper (more commonly). This is what Cato is really refering to in his book, though I take issue with the term he uses. Again, this was mainly used by the Maguindanao and Maranao. I have actually measured this in the Maranao and Maguindanao pieces I have. The technology is not that difficult because it took only a furnace (or bellows) to heat up the materials together to a point where they would start to fuse before melting. However, this would take precise control and experience. This technique is still used today around the world. "Gold filled" is the closest commercial equivelant in that a thin layer of gold is fused to a base metal of brass. The brass is thicker than the gold, but the gold is much thicker than a film a few microns thin, and that is why it wears much better. The Moro/Indonesian/Malay fusing of precious metal is thicker still, and is more economical than solid thin bands of pure metal. My kris that I posted has the swaasa bands of 32-30 gauge bonded (fused) to a thicker base of copper. " The bubbling may be a result of either poor bonding or degradation of the base metal . Anyway it seems like a very nice older example of gunong . Falcon I'm pretty sure you were joking with the offer to buy ; if you are really interested in obtaining an example of this weapon they appear fairly frequently on ebay although few examples as nice as this one show up . Another thing ; if you do end up purchasing one with an ivory pommel you would do well to buy the item in the USA as you may encounter importation problems from other countries ivory being a protected material under the CITES agreement .