Ceremonial moro keris? Comment needed!

philkid · 2nd September 2005, 06:17 AM

Hi Zelbone, thanks for posting your swords. I have a blade similar to your sword, the one without the silver inlay. Will be selling it next week on ebay.

Battara I think the one I have is not swaasa since the color to me seems more of gold than orange. But I doubt this is pure gold though.The band on top of the pommel is also gold.

Battara · 2nd September 2005, 06:29 AM

I would not be surprised if your bands are of a 9.5-10k gold. This has a little more of a yellow-slight orange look compared to 14-22k (and much more affordable and durable). Beautiful okir work in any case. It is also possible that at this end of the karat scale that some tiny amount of patina on the surface has discolored the metal a little. At this end of the karat scale, a slight bit of patina can accrue over the surface. Shine it up and it might change the color a little to truer gold. Polishing up the silver and gold only increases the value (although the true value is in the piece and not in the metals per say). Again, the only way to know for sure is to test the metal chemically.

philkid · 2nd September 2005, 06:40 AM

Thanks. Will do that. By the way, what can I use to polish silver? When did the Moro's learn how to use gold plating?

Battara · 2nd September 2005, 07:51 AM

Polishing - one can get a jeweler's "sunshine cloth" from a jewelry store (at least here in the US).

Gold plating - not real plating, but as Cato uses the word. Here is why I hesitate to call it plating. Plating is a 20c invention that places a thin gold film of only a few microns on a surface (thus plating is going out of style in many jewelry stores here in the US). The layers of precious metals Moros used were an actual layer (32 gauge) of material fused to a base metal like brass or copper (more commonly). This is what Cato is really refering to in his book, though I take issue with the term he uses. Again, this was mainly used by the Maguindanao and Maranao. I have actually measured this in the Maranao and Maguindanao pieces I have. The technology is not that difficult because it took only a furnace (or bellows) to heat up the materials together to a point where they would start to fuse before melting. However, this would take precise control and experience. This technique is still used today around the world. "Gold filled" is the closest commercial equivelant in that a thin layer of gold is fused to a base metal of brass. The brass is thicker than the gold, but the gold is much thicker than a film a few microns thin, and that is why it wears much better. The Moro/Indonesian/Malay fusing of precious metal is thicker still, and is more economical than solid thin bands of pure metal. My kris that I posted has the swaasa bands of 32-30 gauge bonded (fused) to a thicker base of copper.

By the way, I just found this picture of a kris hilt with what I believe to be swaasa (slightly different % of gold and copper) that closer matches your piece. It was posted from a fellow formite from the Museo Nacional Antropologia Madrid in Spain.

It is also interesting that we are posting at the same time, especially since it is day where you are at and I am right now on 3rd shift.

Federico · 2nd September 2005, 07:52 AM

I will note this, while perhaps not in his book, Bob Cato did note that high end Sulu pieces would often feature Maranao fittings, and that there was more connection between Maranao/Sulu kris vs Maguindanao/Sulu kris.

I agree with Zel, this blade has a more Maranao feel to me, at least if we are going by Cato. The trunk has the classic Maranao bulge that is the key feature in his trunk theory for Maranao blades. Also, to me the socketing work and lavish okir work strikes me more as a Maranao style, particularly compared to modern Maranao work, which I sometimes see in nice Sulu fittings as well. Whereas my Maguindanao kris with metal fittings have a more subdued okir style.

Anyways, on a historical level, the connection between Maguindanao and Sulu, during the turn of the 20th century would not be the greatest. One problem I have always had with the trunk theory, is that lumping Maguindanao as one big group takes no accounting of the separation between up-river Buayan Maguindanao (such as Datu Uto who resisted the Spanish to the end) and down river Cotabato Maguindanao (who capitulated to the Spanish). Some authors, such as Ileto, notes the differences between the two groups, by this time, were so great that they could be in some cases be considered two different peoples. Anyways, at this time period the Buayan Sultanate still had strong relations with other Moro groups, not to mention was in far better shape than the Cotabato Sultanate.

Very nice Kris by the way

Battara · 2nd September 2005, 07:56 AM

Thank you Federico for that note - did not know that about high end Sulu pieces sporting Maranao fittings.

I guess you're a late nighter as well.

Federico · 2nd September 2005, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

Thank you Federico for that note - did not know that about high end Sulu pieces sporting Maranao fittings.

Now Im not saying that high end Sulu pieces sport Maranao fittings, Im just saying, if we are going by Bob's research then it is a possibility.

My own guess is that "High End" Sulu fittings that are Sulu made were more likely Iranun vs Maranao (more contact and the Iranun are noted by Warren as having brought big advances in Sulu swords and particularly in the context of the 19th century Iranun sailors often worked in tandem with Sulu missions). Then again how do we distinguish Iranun styles of kris? Was their relationship to the Maranao such that they would be similar (depending on whose origin theory for the Iranun and Maranao you buy are they the same group differentiated by land, or even are all the Mindanao groups truly just variations of eachother, etc...)?

Federico · 2nd September 2005, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Battara

I guess you're a late nighter as well.

Somedays it just seems like I never sleep

Though hopefully will be able to lose some the adrenalline left over from the dojo in a little bit.

2nd September 2005, 07:51 AM	#4
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Polishing - one can get a jeweler's "sunshine cloth" from a jewelry store (at least here in the US). Gold plating - not real plating, but as Cato uses the word. Here is why I hesitate to call it plating. Plating is a 20c invention that places a thin gold film of only a few microns on a surface (thus plating is going out of style in many jewelry stores here in the US). The layers of precious metals Moros used were an actual layer (32 gauge) of material fused to a base metal like brass or copper (more commonly). This is what Cato is really refering to in his book, though I take issue with the term he uses. Again, this was mainly used by the Maguindanao and Maranao. I have actually measured this in the Maranao and Maguindanao pieces I have. The technology is not that difficult because it took only a furnace (or bellows) to heat up the materials together to a point where they would start to fuse before melting. However, this would take precise control and experience. This technique is still used today around the world. "Gold filled" is the closest commercial equivelant in that a thin layer of gold is fused to a base metal of brass. The brass is thicker than the gold, but the gold is much thicker than a film a few microns thin, and that is why it wears much better. The Moro/Indonesian/Malay fusing of precious metal is thicker still, and is more economical than solid thin bands of pure metal. My kris that I posted has the swaasa bands of 32-30 gauge bonded (fused) to a thicker base of copper. By the way, I just found this picture of a kris hilt with what I believe to be swaasa (slightly different % of gold and copper) that closer matches your piece. It was posted from a fellow formite from the Museo Nacional Antropologia Madrid in Spain. It is also interesting that we are posting at the same time, especially since it is day where you are at and I am right now on 3rd shift. Attached Images

2nd September 2005, 06:17 AM	#1
philkid Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 52	Hi Zelbone, thanks for posting your swords. I have a blade similar to your sword, the one without the silver inlay. Will be selling it next week on ebay. Battara I think the one I have is not swaasa since the color to me seems more of gold than orange. But I doubt this is pure gold though.The band on top of the pommel is also gold.

2nd September 2005, 06:29 AM	#2
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I would not be surprised if your bands are of a 9.5-10k gold. This has a little more of a yellow-slight orange look compared to 14-22k (and much more affordable and durable). Beautiful okir work in any case. It is also possible that at this end of the karat scale that some tiny amount of patina on the surface has discolored the metal a little. At this end of the karat scale, a slight bit of patina can accrue over the surface. Shine it up and it might change the color a little to truer gold. Polishing up the silver and gold only increases the value (although the true value is in the piece and not in the metals per say). Again, the only way to know for sure is to test the metal chemically.

2nd September 2005, 06:40 AM	#3
philkid Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Philippines Posts: 52	Thanks. Will do that. By the way, what can I use to polish silver? When did the Moro's learn how to use gold plating?

2nd September 2005, 07:52 AM	#5
Federico Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Minneapolis, MN, USA Posts: 312	I will note this, while perhaps not in his book, Bob Cato did note that high end Sulu pieces would often feature Maranao fittings, and that there was more connection between Maranao/Sulu kris vs Maguindanao/Sulu kris. I agree with Zel, this blade has a more Maranao feel to me, at least if we are going by Cato. The trunk has the classic Maranao bulge that is the key feature in his trunk theory for Maranao blades. Also, to me the socketing work and lavish okir work strikes me more as a Maranao style, particularly compared to modern Maranao work, which I sometimes see in nice Sulu fittings as well. Whereas my Maguindanao kris with metal fittings have a more subdued okir style. Anyways, on a historical level, the connection between Maguindanao and Sulu, during the turn of the 20th century would not be the greatest. One problem I have always had with the trunk theory, is that lumping Maguindanao as one big group takes no accounting of the separation between up-river Buayan Maguindanao (such as Datu Uto who resisted the Spanish to the end) and down river Cotabato Maguindanao (who capitulated to the Spanish). Some authors, such as Ileto, notes the differences between the two groups, by this time, were so great that they could be in some cases be considered two different peoples. Anyways, at this time period the Buayan Sultanate still had strong relations with other Moro groups, not to mention was in far better shape than the Cotabato Sultanate. Very nice Kris by the way

2nd September 2005, 07:56 AM	#6
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	Thank you Federico for that note - did not know that about high end Sulu pieces sporting Maranao fittings. I guess you're a late nighter as well.