cultures moderation tips for keris lovers

[Boedhi Adhitya]

That's what would be happened if we treated the keris as amulet / talismanic devices. The Javanese elders had warn us, the Javaneses, by this saying :"Janjine dudu jimat-kemat, ananging agunging Gusti kang pinuji", that means "The promise was not amulet, but to praise The Great Lord" Anyone who understand the keris-making process will know that empu said nothing during the forging, but prayer to God. Keris worth more than amulet.

Without enough knowledges, the bad keris dealers/dukuns in Java will eat you alive, if you looking kerises on them ! Trust no ones, even me

Mr. Purwacarita, if you or your friends really interested in keris and live in Java, you might go to discussion session held by keris' devotee associations. In Jakarta would be the Damar Taji, in Semarang would be the Puri Wiji, and in Jogjakarta would be the Pametri Wiji. IMHO, they are trustworthy associations. You might learn something, but remember, just use your common senses.

best regards

[Battara]

You know, Boedhi Adhitya has a good point. The same is true of Japanese nihonto sword collecting. Getting together with those who collect, ie. forums (like this one), associations, etc, will help us all on not getting taken. I had a Japanese piece that I discovered was a Paul Chen and was able to get my money back (due to the honest dealer and the feedback of the nihonto guys on the swordforum.com).

[purwacarita]

Thankx for your (culturic?) tips. It is the fact that most people in Indonesia buy keris to acquire the isoteric properties inside, rather than to have the physical keris itself. Most of them still think of keris dealers are from sacred, sincere communities and that what makes them, ...gullible. I've been very concerned but I don't want you guys think I have vendetta against any dealers. For a value of Rp.10mil (or more), people will want the best keris with the best isoteric properties feasible, and for the same reason people will want to say their keris have all the properties required. Yes Ian, it is around the same value.

Here's my first tip.

Ask the question to the dealer, "Why the keris is mahar-ed at some value of money, instead of anything else?"

You can understand the meaning of mahar in cases like,
- the bearer realizing the perishing energy of his keris and knew that you're the only one who could reverse the process, but he thinks you are not willing to help unless the keris is yours. So the bearer tells you that he will give to you if you promise to take care of the problem.

- the bearer is in deep social trouble and you are the one who could help him. So resentfully you tell him that your favor will cost him his keris.

- the bearer is about to die without successors and you are whom he will entrust his keris with. So the bearer give it to you after he takes your oath.

- you are competing with your brother to acquire a divine keris of your master, and your master performs contests to decide who will be descended the keris.

- you envy the beauty of keris belongs to your brother, your master knows it and promise to give his if only you could accomplish certain tasks, like completing your current level of internal martial art.

- the bearer just give away his keris to you for free as he knows how insanely you love keris, and you politely give something in return, but all you have in your pocket is money of small buck.

- some other things I'll add later.

The bottom line is that mahar is not (the other more polite) language of money. It is a pre-conditions met before you can have what you want, and in many cases the requirement is your commitment. So when the keris is mahar-ed at certain amount of money, it is not mahar-ed at all. It is just for sale ...where common-sense public business policies applies.

[nechesh]

Originally Posted by purwacarita

For a value of Rp.10mil (or more), people will want the best keris with the best isoteric properties feasible, and for the same reason people will want to say their keris have all the properties required.

Just a reality check here. For $1000 USD it is perhaps reasonable to expect the "best keris" that has been NEWLY made in Madura.And i will state this again, some of the finest keris ever crafted are being made TODAY. As for esoteric (i assume this is the word you intend ) properties though, such a keris would probably have none. But fine old keris pusaka such as of the quality which Boedhi Adhitya has been speaking of (which would better qualify for the term "best keris") can cost TENS of thousands of dollars. Some are even worth $100,000 or more. So when someone allows themselves to believe they are receiving a keris of this quality for merely $1000 they are really only fooling themselves. But this is how con men work. They convince you that you are receiving an impossible deal and in a sense, it is the buyers own greed which allows him to believe such a thing is possible. Deep inside he knows better. If a deal seems impossible it probably is.
Now, this doesn't mean that you can't build a very nice collection of nice old keris at a much lower cost. They won't be royal court pieces that belonged to prince so-and-so, but IMO that doesn't necessarily mean they will be void of esoteric properties. I will not argue Boedhi Adhitya's position because i think he is absolutely right from the perspective from which he speaks, but i believe that the concept of keris pusaka exists on a different level outside of the royal courts and that many keris conceived for the more common folk were made to carry esoteric energies as well. Once more, it goes back to the old adage, "Buy the keris, not the story". Your inner being will tell you whether or not a keris is right for you, no dukkuns involved (though i must admit i do like the incense )

[Alam Shah]

I love aromatic incense as well. Not for my kerises but for for myself.
It has uplifting properties and can influence and change moods...

Rick and Nechesh are right, "Buy the keris and not the story".
The story is a bonus, good for story-telling with friends.

[purwacarita]

Newbees got themselves cheated in fact by those who they respect as trustworthy. As because trustworthy people knew how much money they could make by fooling one's belief who does not possess adequate comprehension of their culture, and then left their victims financially hurt, degraded faith and got pessimistic towards their own traditions. Very harmful to culture, no?

Yes necesh, you are possibly right when keris is looked from money value perspective, and probably not. Moeny value perspective is not all about keris. What I meant when I first start this thread is to gather culturic perspectives from different cultures, and the "buy the keris, not the story" thing sounds more realistic than culturic.

And as a cultured person, it is my duty oh, my pleasure to contribute and shed light to those newbees, not because I have excessive knowledge so I can spare some little.

Well, cultured Indonesia keris devotees, ...your tips, please?!

Culture could not be built based on deception of money making machine. Second tip.

Keris is a symbol of something. Ask question to yourself,"What in you will be symbolized by your dreamy keris?"

In doing so, you will not mistakenly acquire keris to symbolize unnecessary things of yours like,
- your wealth, because your money already show its perfectly.
- your health, because your diet already show it perfectly also.
- your status, because your tax is the best symbol of it.
- your greed or arrogance, because your attitude reflects that better.
- your power, over what?
- your lust, ...be rational, it does not have to be symbolized.
- etc.

[nechesh]

Sorry purwacarita, i was not looking at keris from the money perspective, just trying to make folks realize that $1000 USD is a drop in the bucket towards the cost of a truly fine old keris pusaka. Certainly there may be other ways to obtain such a keris that does not demand money, but realistically, that is the most common way keris change hands these days. Yes, there is a great deal more to the keris than it's material value.
Perhaps you can be a little more direct with us. What, for instance, does the keris represent in YOUR life?
I don't believe i or anyone was debating that the "culture could not be built based on deception of money making machine." You began this thread by talking about a friend who was ripped off by an unscrupuous dealer. I think then it was you who brought money into this discussion. If you are looking for "culturic perspectives" then i think you need to get a bit more specific and define exactly what you are looking for. "Buy the keris, not the story" is a direct response to your original posting. I guess i don't really know what you mean by "culturic perspectives from different cultures".

You wrote: "And as a cultured person, it is my duty oh, my pleasure to contribute and shed light to those newbees, not because I have excessive knowledge so I can spare some little."

This would be nice, i always like a bit of light shed. I realize there are difficulties in the languages and i commend you for you skills so far, but frankly i have found your posts somewhat cryptic, as if you are not quite saying what it is you really want to say about keris. If you have knowledge, please share it.

[purwacarita]

Originally Posted by nechesh

What, for instance, does the keris represent in YOUR life?

Hi nechesh. Patience, ...a few tips are coming. Yet I'm not the only keris devotee in this forum, however you seem to understand the "cryptic drop in the bucket" culture of Indonesia keris.