Keris Bahari?

David · 10th May 2012, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

The classification given by David is commonly accepted but by no way universal nor guaranteed. I don't want to confuse the matter but just say that it may also be different in Sumatra and Malaysia respectively.
For those of you who are interested, you can refer to the Ensiklopedi Keris pages 64 & 87, and to the book "Keris and other Malay weapons" by Gerald B. Gardner pages 19, 21, 24, 25, 27, and 45. However I have to say that the information from these books is questionable and that again the correct names are not that important

The opinion from our Malaysian or Singapore members will be appreciated.
Regards

Jean, there is very little in the keris world that is ever "universal" or "guaranteed". Your mileage may vary. I think i was clear about that in my answer to Ariel.

ariel · 11th May 2012, 03:14 AM

Thanks to everyone for providing interesting information. On a lighter side, I am glad I was not the only one confused about proper classification of this keris :-)

I also understand that the scabbard is not a masterpiece of indonesian art, to put it mildly, and is likely to be a replacement. Nevertheless, if we forget about it, what is your opinion about the keris itself? How old is it likely to be? On a scale of 1 to 10, where does it stand as panjangs go?

kai · 11th May 2012, 07:49 AM

Hello Ariel,

I also vote for it being a keris panjang.

IMO all fittings are probably fairly recent: The hilt and pendokok will do - could certainly be replaced if you find anything nice though; the scabbard could need some improvement - if there's enough wood, one could try to grind away the carving. Covering them up with embossed silver would be another option but having a good, traditional scabbard made for the blade is better (and probably cheaper)...

IMHO, the blade is a rather nice example: (at least) 19th c. with subtle laminations and rare full-length fullers; without a thorough cleaning and etching (hot vinegar should do), I wouldn't want to judge wether the gonjo is original (even if replaced as often needed during the life of a blade, it looks old and well done).

Regards,
Kai

David · 11th May 2012, 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kai

IMO all fittings are probably fairly recent: The hilt and pendokok will do - could certainly be replaced if you find anything nice though; the scabbard could need some improvement - if there's enough wood, one could try to grind away the carving. Covering them up with embossed silver would be another option but having a good, traditional scabbard made for the blade is better (and probably cheaper)...

Just my own take on this, but i think sometimes we need to accept a keris and/or it's parts for what it is. Many collectors seem too quick to upgrade, often beyond the quality of the blade itself. This sheath is certainly not ideal and the design on the stem is unusual for this form, but it probably did come from an Indonesian source. It is certainly much more recent than the blade. While i would consider re-finishing it, i don't think i would consider grinding away the carving. The finish is pretty poorly done and if to removed it and refinished it you probably would only improve the look. I like the pendokok and would not consider changing it.
The blade could use some cleaning. I would try a pineapple juice soak with regular brushing with a tooth brush. It's a nice old blade that should clean up well.

Sajen · 11th May 2012, 10:51 PM

I am not 100% sure but think that handle, pendokok and sampir are old and only the batang is a later replacement. But don't would try to grind away the carvings since they seems to be fairly deep and you will see it when finished. I would let it in this state or maybe replace it when I really like the keris. Agree with David that I would clean the blade and give it a etch.

Regards,

Detlef

ariel · 12th May 2012, 02:14 AM

Sorry for a stupid question: are we talking about freshly-squeezed pineapple juice or will the canned do?
And why necessarily pineapple juice? If acidity is what is required, why not use 5-10% vinegar from a local supermarket? Anything specific for the pineapple juice or is it just a cultural thing? Also, how do I remove the handle?

Gosh, I never thought there are so many silly questions .......

David · 12th May 2012, 02:48 AM

Actually Ariel, coconut water might be more traditional. Pineaapple juice is a tried and true acid that works slowly enough as not to do much damage to the metal as it cleans rust and dirt from the blade. You can let it soak for days, but you should hit it with an old toothbrush a couple of times a day during the soak. I use it at the suggestion of Alan Maisey and it works great. I think it is probably more gentle than vinegar. Canned is fine, but unsweetened please.
The handle should have some play in it unless it was epoxied or something stupid like that. Try wiggling it gently while slowly trying to pulling it off. If it doesn't move you may need to gently heat the blade to loosen whatever is binding the pesi (tang).

11th May 2012, 03:14 AM	#2
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Thanks to everyone for providing interesting information. On a lighter side, I am glad I was not the only one confused about proper classification of this keris :-) I also understand that the scabbard is not a masterpiece of indonesian art, to put it mildly, and is likely to be a replacement. Nevertheless, if we forget about it, what is your opinion about the keris itself? How old is it likely to be? On a scale of 1 to 10, where does it stand as panjangs go?

11th May 2012, 07:49 AM	#3
kai Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Posts: 3,255	Hello Ariel, I also vote for it being a keris panjang. IMO all fittings are probably fairly recent: The hilt and pendokok will do - could certainly be replaced if you find anything nice though; the scabbard could need some improvement - if there's enough wood, one could try to grind away the carving. Covering them up with embossed silver would be another option but having a good, traditional scabbard made for the blade is better (and probably cheaper)... IMHO, the blade is a rather nice example: (at least) 19th c. with subtle laminations and rare full-length fullers; without a thorough cleaning and etching (hot vinegar should do), I wouldn't want to judge wether the gonjo is original (even if replaced as often needed during the life of a blade, it looks old and well done). Regards, Kai

11th May 2012, 10:51 PM	#5
Sajen Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: Germany, Dortmund Posts: 9,165	I am not 100% sure but think that handle, pendokok and sampir are old and only the batang is a later replacement. But don't would try to grind away the carvings since they seems to be fairly deep and you will see it when finished. I would let it in this state or maybe replace it when I really like the keris. Agree with David that I would clean the blade and give it a etch. Regards, Detlef

12th May 2012, 02:14 AM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Sorry for a stupid question: are we talking about freshly-squeezed pineapple juice or will the canned do? And why necessarily pineapple juice? If acidity is what is required, why not use 5-10% vinegar from a local supermarket? Anything specific for the pineapple juice or is it just a cultural thing? Also, how do I remove the handle? Gosh, I never thought there are so many silly questions .......

12th May 2012, 02:48 AM	#7
David Keris forum moderator Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Nova Scotia Posts: 7,211	Actually Ariel, coconut water might be more traditional. Pineaapple juice is a tried and true acid that works slowly enough as not to do much damage to the metal as it cleans rust and dirt from the blade. You can let it soak for days, but you should hit it with an old toothbrush a couple of times a day during the soak. I use it at the suggestion of Alan Maisey and it works great. I think it is probably more gentle than vinegar. Canned is fine, but unsweetened please. The handle should have some play in it unless it was epoxied or something stupid like that. Try wiggling it gently while slowly trying to pulling it off. If it doesn't move you may need to gently heat the blade to loosen whatever is binding the pesi (tang).