Krazy Kris Krosses

[migueldiaz]

ron, no particular direction i'm going ... just muddling through

but yes, the bagobos are very close geographically to the maguindanaos, if not next door neighbors:

[migueldiaz]

the circle atop an inverted 'v' is also reminiscent of lumad iconography on their brasswork (the lumad kris pic is from erik farrow, and the top inset is from my lumad panabas) ...

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

ron, no particular direction i'm going ... just muddling through

but yes, the bagobos are very close geographically to the maguindanaos, if not next door neighbors:

nevertheless, salamat lorenz!
very interesting topic, but all we can do is hypothesize at this point. the bagobo angle is a good possibility. the compass looking icon is eerily similar..

[Jim McDougall]

Since these Moro weapons are far outside my usual areas I have really been enjoyong the input here, thanks very much Lorenzo and Jose and Ron for posting this.
It seems that markings are commonly lifted from many outside sources and influences much the same as European marks were copied in North Africa as well as many cultures. Markings which fit well in the parlance of local lore, superstitions and talismanic properties and were often selected for their similarity or interpretative applications.

With that perspective, I wonder how reliable classification to certain tribal groups really is based on these kinds of markings and motif. It seems that through various kinds of contact they would adopt favored selections and use them along with others.

All best regards,
Jim

[migueldiaz]

Thanks Jim.

Ron, a related thought is that a lot more Lumad (i.e., Bagobos, Mandayas, etc. -- the non-Islam and non-Christian ethnic people of Mindanao) converted to Christianity, as compared to Moros, as we both know.

And continuing on with our speculation, for me it's not a remote possibility for a Lumad who has heard of Christianity to 'hedge' his bet for good luck by adopting the cross icon on top of the usual sun and serpent-croc symbols on his shield.

In fact the peoples of our islands are very syncretistic when it comes to religion. Even up to now.

[Dimasalang]

Originally Posted by migueldiaz

In fact the peoples of our islands are very syncretistic when it comes to religion. Even up to now.

I always tend to believe this theory. While many folks(particularly outside the Philippines) would like to believe it is always either one or the other, black and white(with no gray area).

Even stuff like the Agimat or Anting Anting talismans. It is well known to be dated back to pre-hispanic times, but the symbols you see now associated with them are mostly Christian in design. Some believing the converted natives actually just substituted their old symbols, words, and spiritual beings for those the Spanish forced on to the natives...so now they are Christian saints, symbols, latin prayers(oricions). Freemasonry as well being incorporated in these designs, since during the turn of the 20th century, Freemasonry greatly impacted these areas by Filipino leaders of the revolution...particularly those who hid out and made their headquarters in places like Mt Banahaw and Mt Cristobal. Attached is an old Anting Anting protection vest...similar to what groups like the Pulajanes would wear. Sorry for getting off topic, but I think it somewhat parallels this topic.

[David R]

Happened everywhere Christianity was imposed, Vodun gods in Haiti have a "Saintly" identity, eg Oguan = Santiago . Even here the old festivals and Gods took new identities, Christmas is the old Solturna, the Green Man is carved in Medieval churches, and St Bridgit is the new avatar of the Crow Goddess...allegedly. Your ordinary person just wants protection from the dark forces, and will take it from wherever it might be gotten. (Let's not talk about Shiela na Gig).
When you get down to it, a lot of the Western swordsmiths marks are talismanic, some folk-Christian and some, half moons, wolves and such perhaps of more eclectic origin.
Add to that the reinterpretation of Western marks in Africa, noted on Kaskara and Takouba,...crosses are among the least dubious symbols you could find!..Sorry to go on like this...just something I find interesting.

[Spunjer]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

With that perspective, I wonder how reliable classification to certain tribal groups really is based on these kinds of markings and motif. It seems that through various kinds of contact they would adopt favored selections and use them along with others.

All best regards,
Jim

this is where it gets complicated, jim. certain markings can be attributed to a particular group, as in what is known as ukkil, or okir designs in which each major tribe has a particular style. some markings tends to be universal, as in those asterisk on michael's example..

Even stuff like the Agimat or Anting Anting talismans. It is well known to be dated back to pre-hispanic times, but the symbols you see now associated with them are mostly Christian in design. Some believing the converted natives actually just substituted their old symbols, words, and spiritual beings for those the Spanish forced on to the natives...so now they are Christian saints, symbols, latin prayers(oricions). Freemasonry as well being incorporated in these designs, since during the turn of the 20th century, Freemasonry greatly impacted these areas by Filipino leaders of the revolution...particularly those who hid out and made their headquarters in places like Mt Banahaw and Mt Cristobal. Attached is an old Anting Anting protection vest...similar to what groups like the Pulajanes would wear. Sorry for getting off topic, but I think it somewhat parallels this topic.

not off topic at all, dimasalang. these incorporations was not only a phenomenon in the christian part but was also done in islam south (hence, folk islam)...