Bali keris pamor

henri · 28th April 2012, 09:05 PM

Thank you Jean . After consulting some documentations I agree we could called this one "tangkis" . I have got in the past a similar pamor on a Bali keris but both sides of the blade . I am still surprised by the very thin layer of nickel for this pamor . Not painted ! Not an easy job for the swordsmith to shape and keep the pamor ...
Henri

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2012, 12:06 AM

A bit late with this post. Sorry, just noticed the thread.

According to my understanding this is not pamor tangkis.

Pamor tangkis is a different pamor on each blade face.

This keris has a small seemingly accidental patch of pamor on one blade face only, the other blade face has no pamor.

This cannot be classified as pamor tangkis.

Jean · 30th July 2012, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Pamor tangkis is a different pamor on each blade face.

This keris has a small seemingly accidental patch of pamor on one blade face only, the other blade face has no pamor.

This cannot be classified as pamor tangkis.

Alan's statement is in accordance with the book "Keris Jawa" from Haryoguritno (page 412) but not with the EK (pages 463/464), hence the source of the confusion but after all the names are not important

Regards

David · 30th July 2012, 04:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jean

Alan's statement is in accordance with the book "Keris Jawa" from Haryoguritno (page 412) but not with the EK (pages 463/464), hence the source of the confusion but after all the names are not important

Not sure that i would go so far as to say that names are not important. Just because there is some disagreement in the interpretations of 2 highly regarded books does not mean a proper definition of "tangkis" is not possible. From my perspective and understanding of the term this keris is not "tangkis". If such a pamor does indeed hold the intent for it's owner to act as a talisman against black magic and this blade is not tangkis, then i suppose it will not fulfill that need for it's owner. Names are descriptors that are used with some concensus of community. We may never know the exact intent and purpose of the pamor of this keris, but i do believe that what we call it now does hold some importance and significance to our understanding of this blade.

A. G. Maisey · 30th July 2012, 11:49 PM

Yes Jean, I can understand your confusion, however, I think we need to look behind what is on the page.

Haryono Guritno is an authority in his own right; Bambang Harsrinuksmo was a journalist who was very interested in keris. There are a number of errors in EK, as well as a number of statements that have drawn strong disagreement from people I know in Solo.

However, this is not to say that Bambang was wrong, nor that EK is without value. Why? Because in the study of keris, opinions vary and those opinions can vary a lot. Its almost a matter of which school you went to.

Keris study is not a standardised study. Its not like Japanese swords where everything is written down and standardised; with Jap swords, if you have a good enough memory you can learn everything and win signature reading competitions against Japanese masters, even if you were born in London.

But you cannot do this with keris.To understand the keris you need to be able to think in a Javanese way and understand things as Javanese people understand things. Keris study is not about memory and categorisation according to set parameters. Keris study is about the culture from which the keris comes, and the language of that culture is not even a standardised language in linguistic terms. With keris, we need to take in everything and try to understand it within its own context.

EK tells us that pamor tangkis has the power to avoid illness caused by an epidemic, there is no mention of black magic.

Then if we look at the picture that is in EK we see a keris with faint, worn pamor on one blade face, and wos wutah on the other blade face.

Keris Jawa just describes the physical appearance of pamor tangkis, it doesn't say anything about its esoteric powers.

Then we have the fact that both EK and KJ are books that are primarily Javanese in context, yes, EK does try to move outside Jawa, but the influence on thought and text is Javanese. The blade being discussed is from Bali. The meaning of a little patch of pamor on one blade face could be quite different in Bali. Maybe it could be different in every separate kingdom in Bali.

The opinion I gave is exactly what I have been taught, and 90% of my knowledge comes from Solo.

Possibly there is room in this question for a little bit of leeway in various opinions.

Jean · 31st July 2012, 08:53 AM

Thank you Alan and I fully agree with what you say.

Regards

Ganja Iras · 31st July 2012, 05:32 PM

dear forum ,

firstly i would like to thanks to the admin and all member for warm welcome to me.
as a newbie i want to share some pic's of my keris (it's been sold ) , pamor tangkis ;related with the topics.
thank you.

Ganja Iras

satsujinken · 11th September 2012, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

But you cannot do this with keris.To understand the keris you need to be able to think in a Javanese way and understand things as Javanese people understand things. Keris study is not about memory and categorisation according to set parameters. Keris study is about the culture from which the keris comes, and the language of that culture is not even a standardised language in linguistic terms. With keris, we need to take in everything and try to understand it within its own context.

EK tells us that pamor tangkis has the power to avoid illness caused by an epidemic, there is no mention of black magic.

newbie from the land of the krisses would like to acknowledge your deep understanding of javanese tradition

anyhow, as far as I know, pamor tangkis means that one side is keleng (without pamor) and other have some kind of pamor

tangkis could also mean : block / parry and this in my limited knowledge and general acceptance here is tend to be associated with blocking black magic, secondly to block anything bad, including plague, illnesses, etc

according to friend of mine (he could be wrong, though), all krisses with pamor in one side of the blade called TANGKIS, means the other side is kelengan

all krisses with 2 pamors, say it on one side of the blade or different side of the blade called dwi warno / dwi warna

31st July 2012, 05:32 PM	#7
Ganja Iras Member Join Date: Jul 2012 Posts: 57	hello dear forum , firstly i would like to thanks to the admin and all member for warm welcome to me. as a newbie i want to share some pic's of my keris (it's been sold ) , pamor tangkis ;related with the topics. thank you. Ganja Iras Attached Images

28th April 2012, 09:05 PM	#1
henri Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Australia Posts: 81	Thank you Jean . After consulting some documentations I agree we could called this one "tangkis" . I have got in the past a similar pamor on a Bali keris but both sides of the blade . I am still surprised by the very thin layer of nickel for this pamor . Not painted ! Not an easy job for the swordsmith to shape and keep the pamor ... Henri

30th July 2012, 12:06 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	A bit late with this post. Sorry, just noticed the thread. According to my understanding this is not pamor tangkis. Pamor tangkis is a different pamor on each blade face. This keris has a small seemingly accidental patch of pamor on one blade face only, the other blade face has no pamor. This cannot be classified as pamor tangkis.

30th July 2012, 11:49 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 6,990	Yes Jean, I can understand your confusion, however, I think we need to look behind what is on the page. Haryono Guritno is an authority in his own right; Bambang Harsrinuksmo was a journalist who was very interested in keris. There are a number of errors in EK, as well as a number of statements that have drawn strong disagreement from people I know in Solo. However, this is not to say that Bambang was wrong, nor that EK is without value. Why? Because in the study of keris, opinions vary and those opinions can vary a lot. Its almost a matter of which school you went to. Keris study is not a standardised study. Its not like Japanese swords where everything is written down and standardised; with Jap swords, if you have a good enough memory you can learn everything and win signature reading competitions against Japanese masters, even if you were born in London. But you cannot do this with keris.To understand the keris you need to be able to think in a Javanese way and understand things as Javanese people understand things. Keris study is not about memory and categorisation according to set parameters. Keris study is about the culture from which the keris comes, and the language of that culture is not even a standardised language in linguistic terms. With keris, we need to take in everything and try to understand it within its own context. EK tells us that pamor tangkis has the power to avoid illness caused by an epidemic, there is no mention of black magic. Then if we look at the picture that is in EK we see a keris with faint, worn pamor on one blade face, and wos wutah on the other blade face. Keris Jawa just describes the physical appearance of pamor tangkis, it doesn't say anything about its esoteric powers. Then we have the fact that both EK and KJ are books that are primarily Javanese in context, yes, EK does try to move outside Jawa, but the influence on thought and text is Javanese. The blade being discussed is from Bali. The meaning of a little patch of pamor on one blade face could be quite different in Bali. Maybe it could be different in every separate kingdom in Bali. The opinion I gave is exactly what I have been taught, and 90% of my knowledge comes from Solo. Possibly there is room in this question for a little bit of leeway in various opinions.

31st July 2012, 08:53 AM	#6
Jean Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 1,740	Thank you Alan and I fully agree with what you say. Regards