Maghrebi Moroccan Nimcha??

A.alnakkas · 24th April 2012, 02:37 PM

Very nice piece Steve!

I am aswell interested in knowing the origin of the blade! but probably european?

Atlantia · 24th April 2012, 04:33 PM

Hi Steve.

Interesting pattern welded blade. The (In)famous raindrop/birdseye pattern.
I believe that the antique examples of this pattern tend to be highly polished and lightly etched in a similar way to when Turkish ribbon/star is used in a kilic/yat with a flat edge and not deeply etched to provide a very stark high contrast like when star is used in the fullers of a Kindjal.
Yours seems to have been deeply etched all over like a kris.... or a modern 'reimagined' Indian raindrop/birdseye pattern blade and then somewhat cleaned possibly then lightly etched again?
It has all the features of a modern Indian made blade, often mounted as a Tulwar, but in this case mounted as a Nimcha.
Do you see any signs of differential tempering or use/sharpening beyond the uniform cleaning?

I would guess (and it's just my gut feeling) that this is a sword of Indian origin and probobly from the later 20thC.

Just my 2p worth. I could be bonkers of course. Still one up from a dancers sword in any event.

ATB
Gene

P.S. I do see atypical even one-off Indian pattern welded blades occasionally. Last year I saw a Nazi boot knife in raindrop pattern with Afrika Korps koftgari decoration.
These chaps make anything that takes their fancy.

A.alnakkas · 24th April 2012, 04:46 PM

Good point Gene, but I dont fully agree.. It is still possible that this is a made up (or mish mash) piece but there are differences between this blade and modern indian ones, but the most obvious is the lack of an indian ricasso thingy.

I am no expert in the field of patterns, but it seems to me that the blade is old, was heavily rusty, cleaned and then etched. The pattern can be seen moving consistantly between "normal" parts and the pitted parts as if it isnt effected by the age wear which have created the pitting. The blade tip seems to be reshaped.

Regardless, I like the piece anyways, probably was a looker back in the day ;-)

Atlantia · 24th April 2012, 05:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Good point Gene, but I dont fully agree.. It is still possible that this is a made up (or mish mash) piece but there are differences between this blade and modern indian ones, but the most obvious is the lack of an indian ricasso thingy.

I am no expert in the field of patterns, but it seems to me that the blade is old, was heavily rusty, cleaned and then etched. The pattern can be seen moving consistantly between "normal" parts and the pitted parts as if it isnt effected by the age wear which have created the pitting. The blade tip seems to be reshaped.

Regardless, I like the piece anyways, probably was a looker back in the day ;-)

Hi Lotfy,

They are hand made and individual items mate. There are blank damascus tulwar blades with no ricasso for sale on everyones favourite auction site right now (more steeply curved).
I don't see any areas of corrosion that would indicate a long period of oxidisation. I could produce that effect in a very short time, a few weeks at most.
But like I say, just my 2p! I could be wrong.

Best
Gene

P.S. here's one from completed items, not for sale now (previosly sold) so it doesn't breech the rules for posting.

A.alnakkas · 24th April 2012, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Hi Lotfy,

They are hand made and individual items mate. There are blank damascus tulwar blades with no ricasso for sale on everyones favourite auction site right now (more steeply curved).
I don't see any areas of corrosion that would indicate a long period of oxidisation. I could produce that effect in a very short time, a few weeks at most.
But like I say, just my 2p! I could be wrong.

Best
Gene

P.S. here's one from completed items, not for sale now (previosly sold) so it doesn't breech the rules for posting.

I see. Yeah I think your right. But what about the fittings? Maybe someone ha spare nimcha parts :P

Atlantia · 24th April 2012, 07:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

I see. Yeah I think your right. But what about the fittings? Maybe someone ha spare nimcha parts :P

Hi Lotfy,

It could have been made that way in India or by an Indian in Morocco even.
The indian workshops turning out this type of blade are making a very wide variety of styles of both blades and fittings.
Lets see what the others think?

ATB
Gene

Atlantia · 24th April 2012, 07:06 PM

Steve,

You're a steel buff. Give it a flex and see if it's tempered, have a little scratch at the edge with a needle file and see how hard it is etc.

ATB
Gene

archer · 24th April 2012, 06:49 PM

Thanks for the input The washed out areas are mostly on one side. Hanging on a cold wall scabbard rusting?? At this stage would a light etch to even out the patchy areas be O.K.? I don't see any tempering lines. I was puzzled by the edge bluntness maybe 1/100 of INCH showing steel layers I'm a steel nut and not that familar swords. I thought it might have been blunted at some time. I don't see the normal sharpening scratches, just the tapering done during forging. Steve

Gene, Just saw your blade post this pattern is far more random.

Atlantia · 24th April 2012, 07:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

Thanks for the input The washed out areas are mostly on one side. Hanging on a cold wall scabbard rusting?? At this stage would a light etch to even out the patchy areas be O.K.? I don't see any tempering lines. I was puzzled by the edge bluntness maybe 1/100 of INCH showing steel layers I'm a steel nut and not that familar swords. I thought it might have been blunted at some time. I don't see the normal sharpening scratches, just the tapering done during forging. Steve

Gene, Just saw your blade post this pattern is far more random.

Hi Steve,

The one I posted was just the first 'similar' example of a bare modern blade I found on ebay in completed items.

The non-sharpened edge is also indicative of modern Indian blades I'm sorry to say.
It doesn't look blunted to me, it looks like it was never sharpened.

Sorry mate
ATB
Gene

Rick · 24th April 2012, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by archer

I don't see any tempering lines. I was puzzled by the edge bluntness maybe 1/100 of INCH showing steel layers I'm a steel nut and not that familar swords. I thought it might have been blunted at some time. I don't see the normal sharpening scratches, just the tapering done during forging. Steve

Steve, this may be a hint as to the origin of the blade; I have read here that sharpened sword blades may not be exported from India .

When I look at my old Indian blades the pattern welding is quite unextrordinary (nowhere near as busy a pattern), not at all like this work .

I also notice that there is no ferrule at the hilt .

A.alnakkas · 24th April 2012, 07:15 PM

Guess were up against a new type of fakes then.. they are getting better by the day.

24th April 2012, 06:49 PM	#8
archer Member Join Date: Mar 2005 Posts: 373	Question Thanks for the input The washed out areas are mostly on one side. Hanging on a cold wall scabbard rusting?? At this stage would a light etch to even out the patchy areas be O.K.? I don't see any tempering lines. I was puzzled by the edge bluntness maybe 1/100 of INCH showing steel layers I'm a steel nut and not that familar swords. I thought it might have been blunted at some time. I don't see the normal sharpening scratches, just the tapering done during forging. Steve Gene, Just saw your blade post this pattern is far more random. Attached Images

24th April 2012, 02:37 PM	#1
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Very nice piece Steve! I am aswell interested in knowing the origin of the blade! but probably european?

24th April 2012, 04:33 PM	#2
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Hi Steve. Interesting pattern welded blade. The (In)famous raindrop/birdseye pattern. I believe that the antique examples of this pattern tend to be highly polished and lightly etched in a similar way to when Turkish ribbon/star is used in a kilic/yat with a flat edge and not deeply etched to provide a very stark high contrast like when star is used in the fullers of a Kindjal. Yours seems to have been deeply etched all over like a kris.... or a modern 'reimagined' Indian raindrop/birdseye pattern blade and then somewhat cleaned possibly then lightly etched again? It has all the features of a modern Indian made blade, often mounted as a Tulwar, but in this case mounted as a Nimcha. Do you see any signs of differential tempering or use/sharpening beyond the uniform cleaning? I would guess (and it's just my gut feeling) that this is a sword of Indian origin and probobly from the later 20thC. Just my 2p worth. I could be bonkers of course. Still one up from a dancers sword in any event. ATB Gene P.S. I do see atypical even one-off Indian pattern welded blades occasionally. Last year I saw a Nazi boot knife in raindrop pattern with Afrika Korps koftgari decoration. These chaps make anything that takes their fancy.

24th April 2012, 04:46 PM	#3
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Good point Gene, but I dont fully agree.. It is still possible that this is a made up (or mish mash) piece but there are differences between this blade and modern indian ones, but the most obvious is the lack of an indian ricasso thingy. I am no expert in the field of patterns, but it seems to me that the blade is old, was heavily rusty, cleaned and then etched. The pattern can be seen moving consistantly between "normal" parts and the pitted parts as if it isnt effected by the age wear which have created the pitting. The blade tip seems to be reshaped. Regardless, I like the piece anyways, probably was a looker back in the day ;-)

24th April 2012, 07:06 PM	#7
Atlantia Member Join Date: Jun 2008 Location: The Sharp end Posts: 2,928	Steve, You're a steel buff. Give it a flex and see if it's tempered, have a little scratch at the edge with a needle file and see how hard it is etc. ATB Gene

24th April 2012, 07:15 PM	#11
A.alnakkas Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Kuwait Posts: 1,340	Guess were up against a new type of fakes then.. they are getting better by the day.