the river Lek Landsknechtdagger

[Swordfish]

Another painting, dated1469, with a dagger with twisted grip.

[Matchlock]

What remains still as a solid basis of dating the Philly dagger is the symmetric Renaissance-style washer.

m

[Swordfish]

This is not a Renaissance style! Gothic stylistic elements are symmetric in at least one axis or two. Compare a gothic trefoil or quatrefoil. The lower front blank of gothic chests, especially of South German origin, is cut out in a similar shape as the sides of this washer.

See attached photo of a chest dated by dendrochronology c.1375

Additional a late gothic chest lock, with an identical detail, but reversed.

Therefore this washer is clearly of Gothic style !

Best

[cornelistromp]

I believe the majority of all the I type disk hilted daggers can be dated between 1350-1450.

cf Seitz blankwaffen p 201 Dagger 3. 1350-1400

cf Jan Piet Puype Harm Stevens A&A of knights and landknechts p172/173 no45, the disk of this dagger has a 90 degree bent guard plate with lobed borders, facts such as the Lek dagger. see pictures attached 1400-1450

cf Scheider&StuberGrifwaffen 1 ill.no 415-432

cf Wegeli Inventar der waffensammlung.. Museum in Bern p286 dagger 1091.

cf Robert Wilkinson Antique weapons and armour p 140 rondel dagger 2 1440-1450, this one has a similar washer as the phil dagger placed at the grip,can this shape be a crossflower? see pictures

best,

[Dmitry]

Excellent. So was wrong to attribute the Philadelphia dagger to the late 1400s-early 1500s?

[Matchlock]

It's hard to tell, the arguments vary and edged weapons are not my main expertise.

If this discussion was about a contemporary fireram, I would argue that all sources of period artwork generally tended to illustrate details of both costume and accouterments as 'characteristic' as possible, in order to ensure an optimum grade of recognition on the part of the viewer. 600-500 years ago, illuminators normally did not care for single details.
Thus, arquebuses were often depicted being fired without anyone visible to ignite them. Composite horn bows of 15th c. crossbows were illustrated in green colors - not one single existing crossbow with a green bow is known.
Animals like lions or elephants were depicted like dogs or pigs - simply because nobody cared.
It is a generally acknowleged fact in art history that detailed illustrations as well as perspective were first introduced by Early Renaissance artists like da Vinci and Dürer, both active about 1500.

Concerning the dagger grip in question, illustrated to be spirally wound in a mid-15th c. painting, I would explain this fact by pointing out the period tendency to depict all items in an 'idealized super-Gothic' decorative style - those artists cared by no means to copy an actually existing dagger. The cultural and decorative ideal was all that counted. That's why most Landsknechts in paintings of the Battle of Pavia are shown to be equipped with highly elaborate arquebuses, their stocks painted green or red, the basic Late-Gothic colors, and their Katzbalger sheaths highly decorated with colored lozenge patterns ...

In my experience, weapons - and especially firearms - actually always were the very latest objects to get decorated with characteristic stylistic features of the respective period. Thus, you will find Late-Gothic stylistic elements on firearms up to ca. 1600 - the Late-Renaisance period when they had become extinct on most other artworks, and even weapons, long ago.

m

[cornelistromp]

Originally Posted by Dmitry

Excellent. So was wrong to attribute the Philadelphia dagger to the late 1400s-early 1500s?

The dagger from Philadelphia is correctly dated around 1400, herewith also a gothic dagger Hermann Historica auction 64 lot 2209, around 1400 with an interesting symmetrical pommel cap of a similar shape as the washer of the Phily dagger.

Best,

[Swordfish]

The dating of the HH dagger may be right in this case, but generally datings of auction houses must be treated with caution. There are always many wrong datings.

Best