the river Lek Landsknechtdagger

Matchlock · 16th April 2012, 11:03 PM

Thanks a lot, Dmitry,

For posting the images together with your remarks, which in my eyes are absolutely correct!

I thought I saved anything published by the Philly to my hard disc but this item was missing so far.

A dating of 'ca. 1400' is way off indeed.
For comparison, attached please find images of a fine 1520's' horseman's axe, the haft twisted in the same early-Italian Renaissance fashion, and a contemporary North Italian arquebus barrel.

Thanks again, and best,
Michael

eftihis · 17th April 2012, 09:02 AM

what a fantastic find!

Swordfish · 17th April 2012, 10:13 PM

I don`t believe that the dagger in the Philadelphia Museum dates as late as 1520-1530. It could well belong to the 15th century. That the twisted grip was in use much earlier, can be seen on the attached detail photo of a painting in an Austrian collection, dated 1425, with a rondel dagger with a spirally twisted grip.

Best

Swordfish · 17th April 2012, 10:29 PM

Another painting, dated1469, with a dagger with twisted grip.

Matchlock · 17th April 2012, 10:33 PM

What remains still as a solid basis of dating the Philly dagger is the symmetric Renaissance-style washer.

m

Swordfish · 17th April 2012, 11:02 PM

This is not a Renaissance style! Gothic stylistic elements are symmetric in at least one axis or two. Compare a gothic trefoil or quatrefoil. The lower front blank of gothic chests, especially of South German origin, is cut out in a similar shape as the sides of this washer.

See attached photo of a chest dated by dendrochronology c.1375

Additional a late gothic chest lock, with an identical detail, but reversed.

Therefore this washer is clearly of Gothic style !

Best

cornelistromp · 18th April 2012, 07:22 AM

I believe the majority of all the I type disk hilted daggers can be dated between 1350-1450.

cf Seitz blankwaffen p 201 Dagger 3. 1350-1400

cf Jan Piet Puype Harm Stevens A&A of knights and landknechts p172/173 no45, the disk of this dagger has a 90 degree bent guard plate with lobed borders, facts such as the Lek dagger. see pictures attached 1400-1450

cf Scheider&StuberGrifwaffen 1 ill.no 415-432

cf Wegeli Inventar der waffensammlung.. Museum in Bern p286 dagger 1091.

cf Robert Wilkinson Antique weapons and armour p 140 rondel dagger 2 1440-1450, this one has a similar washer as the phil dagger placed at the grip,can this shape be a crossflower? see pictures

best,

16th April 2012, 11:03 PM	#1
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thanks a lot, Dmitry, For posting the images together with your remarks, which in my eyes are absolutely correct! I thought I saved anything published by the Philly to my hard disc but this item was missing so far. A dating of 'ca. 1400' is way off indeed. For comparison, attached please find images of a fine 1520's' horseman's axe, the haft twisted in the same early-Italian Renaissance fashion, and a contemporary North Italian arquebus barrel. Thanks again, and best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 17th April 2012 at 08:47 PM.

17th April 2012, 10:13 PM	#3
Swordfish Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 129	I don`t believe that the dagger in the Philadelphia Museum dates as late as 1520-1530. It could well belong to the 15th century. That the twisted grip was in use much earlier, can be seen on the attached detail photo of a painting in an Austrian collection, dated 1425, with a rondel dagger with a spirally twisted grip. Best Attached Images Last edited by Swordfish; 18th April 2012 at 09:40 AM.

17th April 2012, 10:29 PM	#4
Swordfish Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 129	Another painting, dated1469, with a dagger with twisted grip. Attached Images

17th April 2012, 11:02 PM	#6
Swordfish Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 129	This is not a Renaissance style! Gothic stylistic elements are symmetric in at least one axis or two. Compare a gothic trefoil or quatrefoil. The lower front blank of gothic chests, especially of South German origin, is cut out in a similar shape as the sides of this washer. See attached photo of a chest dated by dendrochronology c.1375 Additional a late gothic chest lock, with an identical detail, but reversed. Therefore this washer is clearly of Gothic style ! Best Attached Images Last edited by Swordfish; 18th April 2012 at 05:39 PM.

18th April 2012, 07:22 AM	#7
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	I believe the majority of all the I type disk hilted daggers can be dated between 1350-1450. cf Seitz blankwaffen p 201 Dagger 3. 1350-1400 cf Jan Piet Puype Harm Stevens A&A of knights and landknechts p172/173 no45, the disk of this dagger has a 90 degree bent guard plate with lobed borders, facts such as the Lek dagger. see pictures attached 1400-1450 cf Scheider&StuberGrifwaffen 1 ill.no 415-432 cf Wegeli Inventar der waffensammlung.. Museum in Bern p286 dagger 1091. cf Robert Wilkinson Antique weapons and armour p 140 rondel dagger 2 1440-1450, this one has a similar washer as the phil dagger placed at the grip,can this shape be a crossflower? see pictures best, Attached Images Last edited by cornelistromp; 18th April 2012 at 08:04 AM.

17th April 2012, 09:02 AM	#2
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	what a fantastic find!

17th April 2012, 10:33 PM	#5
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	What remains still as a solid basis of dating the Philly dagger is the symmetric Renaissance-style washer. m