the river Lek Landsknechtdagger

Dmitry · 16th April 2012, 09:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matchlock

Well observed, Gene,

And the symmetric form of the washer as well as the twisted grip both denote that the Philadelphia piece posted by Dmitry dates from the 1520's-30's, the heyday of the Landsknechts.

Best,
Michael

Michael, I didn't want to bring this up, since the topic is not focused on it, but now that you said it, it confirms what I thought the moment I saw the piece - the Philly Museum tag for this dagger is way off the mark.

Matchlock · 16th April 2012, 11:03 PM

Thanks a lot, Dmitry,

For posting the images together with your remarks, which in my eyes are absolutely correct!

I thought I saved anything published by the Philly to my hard disc but this item was missing so far.

A dating of 'ca. 1400' is way off indeed.
For comparison, attached please find images of a fine 1520's' horseman's axe, the haft twisted in the same early-Italian Renaissance fashion, and a contemporary North Italian arquebus barrel.

Thanks again, and best,
Michael

eftihis · 17th April 2012, 09:02 AM

what a fantastic find!

Swordfish · 17th April 2012, 10:13 PM

I don`t believe that the dagger in the Philadelphia Museum dates as late as 1520-1530. It could well belong to the 15th century. That the twisted grip was in use much earlier, can be seen on the attached detail photo of a painting in an Austrian collection, dated 1425, with a rondel dagger with a spirally twisted grip.

Best

Swordfish · 17th April 2012, 10:29 PM

Another painting, dated1469, with a dagger with twisted grip.

Matchlock · 17th April 2012, 10:33 PM

What remains still as a solid basis of dating the Philly dagger is the symmetric Renaissance-style washer.

m

Swordfish · 17th April 2012, 11:02 PM

This is not a Renaissance style! Gothic stylistic elements are symmetric in at least one axis or two. Compare a gothic trefoil or quatrefoil. The lower front blank of gothic chests, especially of South German origin, is cut out in a similar shape as the sides of this washer.

See attached photo of a chest dated by dendrochronology c.1375

Additional a late gothic chest lock, with an identical detail, but reversed.

Therefore this washer is clearly of Gothic style !

Best

16th April 2012, 11:03 PM	#2
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	Thanks a lot, Dmitry, For posting the images together with your remarks, which in my eyes are absolutely correct! I thought I saved anything published by the Philly to my hard disc but this item was missing so far. A dating of 'ca. 1400' is way off indeed. For comparison, attached please find images of a fine 1520's' horseman's axe, the haft twisted in the same early-Italian Renaissance fashion, and a contemporary North Italian arquebus barrel. Thanks again, and best, Michael Attached Images Last edited by Matchlock; 17th April 2012 at 08:47 PM.

17th April 2012, 10:13 PM	#4
Swordfish Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 129	I don`t believe that the dagger in the Philadelphia Museum dates as late as 1520-1530. It could well belong to the 15th century. That the twisted grip was in use much earlier, can be seen on the attached detail photo of a painting in an Austrian collection, dated 1425, with a rondel dagger with a spirally twisted grip. Best Attached Images Last edited by Swordfish; 18th April 2012 at 09:40 AM.

17th April 2012, 10:29 PM	#5
Swordfish Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 129	Another painting, dated1469, with a dagger with twisted grip. Attached Images

17th April 2012, 11:02 PM	#7
Swordfish Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 129	This is not a Renaissance style! Gothic stylistic elements are symmetric in at least one axis or two. Compare a gothic trefoil or quatrefoil. The lower front blank of gothic chests, especially of South German origin, is cut out in a similar shape as the sides of this washer. See attached photo of a chest dated by dendrochronology c.1375 Additional a late gothic chest lock, with an identical detail, but reversed. Therefore this washer is clearly of Gothic style ! Best Attached Images Last edited by Swordfish; 18th April 2012 at 05:39 PM.

17th April 2012, 09:02 AM	#3
eftihis Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Chania Crete Greece Posts: 511	what a fantastic find!

17th April 2012, 10:33 PM	#6
Matchlock (deceased) Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking Posts: 4,310	What remains still as a solid basis of dating the Philly dagger is the symmetric Renaissance-style washer. m