Turkish Pistol ?

rickystl · 3rd April 2012, 05:31 PM

Hello everyone. I've been away from the Forum for a couple months. I will start to play catch up on the many Posts here and the European Forum.
Meantime, I experienced a recent moment of weakness

I just had to have this Pistol to add to my collection. I believe this is a Turkish made (not Balkan) pistol. There are no markings of any kind on the outside, inside the lock, or underneath the barrel. It's about .65 caliber. But again, I believe it is Turkish made. Anyone else agree? Comments appreciated. Thanks for looking. Rick.

rickystl · 3rd April 2012, 05:36 PM

A Few More:

Included is original early Suma loading Rod.

TVV · 3rd April 2012, 05:54 PM

Very nice pistol, in really good shape, congratulations. While it is obviously Ottoman, what makes you think that it was made/assembled in Asia Minor as opposed to the Balkans?
Regards,
Teodor

Multumesc · 4th April 2012, 10:31 AM

Very nice pistol

rickystl · 4th April 2012, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TVV

Very nice pistol, in really good shape, congratulations. While it is obviously Ottoman, what makes you think that it was made/assembled in Asia Minor as opposed to the Balkans?
Regards,
Teodor

Hi Teodor!! Thanks for the kind comments. Of course I can't say for sure it was not made in the Balkans. The design of the butt and cap, and especially the trigger guard design looks almost identical to other Turkish made pistols I've seen/held.
The Balkan pistols (made for the Turkish Market) have a distinctive, larger butt cap area on every one I've seen (over a hundered). Below is a typical Balkan made pistol. Notice the large style butt section.
All the pistols that I have seen that could be verified as Turkish made, have the slightly smaller butt with a slightly more pronounced curve.
Again, this is just my opinion. Thanks again for your comments. Rick.

David R · 4th April 2012, 11:33 PM

Bear in mind both Italy and France made pistols for export to the Ottoman Empire, and this has a French look about it to me. Then again, lack of marks of any kind is a puzzler. Try it on the European forum.

TVV · 5th April 2012, 01:17 AM

Rick,

Good observation on the butt cap area. I was not aware that this could be used to differentiate between Ottoman pistols made in the Balkans from those made in the Asian part of the Empire. Is there a reference that states that?

To me, the brass rosettes on the stock look very simialr to the rosettes found on Balkan rifles and daggers, such as the Bosnian knives. I agree that the crescents indicate that the pistol likely belonged to a Turk, but there were a lot of Turks all over the Balkans in the 19th century.

I am not trying to be argumentative, I am just trying to learn more, as the topic of Ottoman firearms is still not a well studied one, given the vast size of the Empire and the tendency to describe many tiems as simply Ottoman, with little attempt to attribute them to a more narrow area. This is further complicated by the fact that as David ntoes, this design is French and a lot of French, Italian and Belgian manufacturers were flooding the Ottoman market with pistols and pistol parts, supplemented with locally made imitations.

Regards,
Teodor

rickystl · 5th April 2012, 07:51 PM

Hi David. YES!! Good point. I've never been able to locate a pistol that could be verified as European made for that Market. We know many were made, I've just not come accross one yet. It's also known that sometimes the locally made guns would have spurios European style marks applied locally to make the prospective customer believe it was more valuable. Of course this complicates things even more as a collector.
I am surprised that this pistol has no marks of any kind considering the quality of the piece. Most Turkish made barrels have some type of mark.
Many of the Balkan made pistols I've examined have no marks at all. Thanks for your reply. Rick.

rickystl · 5th April 2012, 07:59 PM

Hi Teodor. Thanks so much for your reply. Do let me clarify it's only my "opinion" that I believe the pistol was Turkish made vs made in the Balkans. I can only base this on the many samples I've looked at.
I have a Persian made longarm that has similar mosaic decoration the entire length of the stock. That similar decoration has shown up on guns made all over the region. Again, thanks for your imput. Much appreciated. Rick.

Norman McCormick · 5th April 2012, 08:18 PM

Hi,
Lock from my Greek Kariofili, the general lock shape and setup look reasonably similar.
Regards,
Norman.

rickystl · 8th April 2012, 05:35 PM

Hi Norman. That is a very nice Kariofili !!! Appears to be in great condition. It would not surprise me if the lock on your gun was actually European made (styled for the local market). If you get a chance, please post more photos of your's.
I have disassembled - and even repaired - many of the locks on these type of guns. While often highly stylized and decorated, I find the lock internals, even the locks internal geometry to be lacking compared to actual European made locks. There's probably a number of reasons for this including the experience of the locksmith, tools available, etc.
In any case, I find these guns fascinating and really enjoy collecting them. There's not many of us out there that collect these guns. Most of the guys are interested in the blades and armour. Thanks again for Posting. Much appreciated. Rick.

3rd April 2012, 05:31 PM	#1
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Turkish Pistol ? Hello everyone. I've been away from the Forum for a couple months. I will start to play catch up on the many Posts here and the European Forum. Meantime, I experienced a recent moment of weakness I just had to have this Pistol to add to my collection. I believe this is a Turkish made (not Balkan) pistol. There are no markings of any kind on the outside, inside the lock, or underneath the barrel. It's about .65 caliber. But again, I believe it is Turkish made. Anyone else agree? Comments appreciated. Thanks for looking. Rick. Attached Images

3rd April 2012, 05:36 PM	#2
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	A Few More Photos A Few More: Included is original early Suma loading Rod. Attached Images

5th April 2012, 08:18 PM	#10
Norman McCormick Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 1,597	Hi, Lock from my Greek Kariofili, the general lock shape and setup look reasonably similar. Regards, Norman. Attached Images

3rd April 2012, 05:54 PM	#3
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Very nice pistol, in really good shape, congratulations. While it is obviously Ottoman, what makes you think that it was made/assembled in Asia Minor as opposed to the Balkans? Regards, Teodor

4th April 2012, 10:31 AM	#4
Multumesc Member Join Date: Feb 2012 Location: Romania Posts: 203	Very nice pistol

4th April 2012, 11:33 PM	#6
David R Member Join Date: Jan 2011 Posts: 1,079	Bear in mind both Italy and France made pistols for export to the Ottoman Empire, and this has a French look about it to me. Then again, lack of marks of any kind is a puzzler. Try it on the European forum.

5th April 2012, 01:17 AM	#7
TVV Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Bay Area Posts: 1,624	Rick, Good observation on the butt cap area. I was not aware that this could be used to differentiate between Ottoman pistols made in the Balkans from those made in the Asian part of the Empire. Is there a reference that states that? To me, the brass rosettes on the stock look very simialr to the rosettes found on Balkan rifles and daggers, such as the Bosnian knives. I agree that the crescents indicate that the pistol likely belonged to a Turk, but there were a lot of Turks all over the Balkans in the 19th century. I am not trying to be argumentative, I am just trying to learn more, as the topic of Ottoman firearms is still not a well studied one, given the vast size of the Empire and the tendency to describe many tiems as simply Ottoman, with little attempt to attribute them to a more narrow area. This is further complicated by the fact that as David ntoes, this design is French and a lot of French, Italian and Belgian manufacturers were flooding the Ottoman market with pistols and pistol parts, supplemented with locally made imitations. Regards, Teodor

5th April 2012, 07:51 PM	#8
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi David. YES!! Good point. I've never been able to locate a pistol that could be verified as European made for that Market. We know many were made, I've just not come accross one yet. It's also known that sometimes the locally made guns would have spurios European style marks applied locally to make the prospective customer believe it was more valuable. Of course this complicates things even more as a collector. I am surprised that this pistol has no marks of any kind considering the quality of the piece. Most Turkish made barrels have some type of mark. Many of the Balkan made pistols I've examined have no marks at all. Thanks for your reply. Rick.

5th April 2012, 07:59 PM	#9
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Teodor. Thanks so much for your reply. Do let me clarify it's only my "opinion" that I believe the pistol was Turkish made vs made in the Balkans. I can only base this on the many samples I've looked at. I have a Persian made longarm that has similar mosaic decoration the entire length of the stock. That similar decoration has shown up on guns made all over the region. Again, thanks for your imput. Much appreciated. Rick.

8th April 2012, 05:35 PM	#11
rickystl Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: St. Louis, MO area. Posts: 1,623	Hi Norman. That is a very nice Kariofili !!! Appears to be in great condition. It would not surprise me if the lock on your gun was actually European made (styled for the local market). If you get a chance, please post more photos of your's. I have disassembled - and even repaired - many of the locks on these type of guns. While often highly stylized and decorated, I find the lock internals, even the locks internal geometry to be lacking compared to actual European made locks. There's probably a number of reasons for this including the experience of the locksmith, tools available, etc. In any case, I find these guns fascinating and really enjoy collecting them. There's not many of us out there that collect these guns. Most of the guys are interested in the blades and armour. Thanks again for Posting. Much appreciated. Rick.