Early European arms captured by the Ottomans

Swordfish · 2nd April 2012, 05:25 PM

Hi,

I know the Alexandria group of swords, but these are not really captured from the Europeans. These swords are often treated in other publications, therefore I have not mentioned them here. It is surely right, that the majority of swords with Alexandria inscription do not bear the Tamga, but some do exist. A friend of mine has such a one in his collection. The sword can be dated stylistically c. 1430, the cross has already a simple finger-ring. Unfortunately I don`t know if the inscription is dated.

Swords like fig.5 were surely in use during the second half of the 14th century, as well as during the first quarter of the 15th century, therefore I have dated it roughly c.1400.

Sword fig.5 has a flat and flexible cutting blade with a fuller running down nearly all the length, therefore it can not be of type XVIIIc. The swords of this type have stiff blades of diamond section, even the ones with a fuller.
If I have to categorise the blade, I would put it into type XIIa.

Best

cornelistromp · 2nd April 2012, 06:53 PM

Hi,

yes, sword nr 5 is indeed Oakeshott Type XIIA, I described it as a precursor/forerunner of the type XVIIIC (actually not as a type XVIIIC.)
Because it has a blade with a kind of wedge towards the cutting edge, caused by the concave, this really makes it like type XVIIIC a pure cutting sword.

The mid rib of the type XVIIIC causes a similar kind of wedge towards the cutting edge. When the geometry and balance of this XIIa sword are improved during the time it can evolve into a cutting sword like type XVIIIC.

The group XIIa was created by oakeshott some time after his classification , I believe with the publication of ROMS, before these 2 hand swords with tapering blades and longer fullers were (incorrectly) placed in XIIIa.

Original swords with arsenal inscription and Tamga actually are not known, I am very curious about each example which has both.

about the type of sword # 1 is also much Published, for example by DG Alexander-European Swords in the collection of Istanbul partII.
Swords captured directly by the ottomans or recieved as Sultan gifts.
Sword #1 is placed in group XVII ,according to DG Alexander it is not possible to know when these swords fell in hands of the ottomans, only for the simple fact that during the 2nd half of the 15th century many battles have been fought.
An almost identical sword as nr 1 is in Topkapi Museum Istanbul under # A14793

best,

Swordfish · 13th April 2012, 02:43 PM

Schiavona in the Military Museum Istanbul, grip replaced.

Best

Swordfish · 3rd June 2012, 11:02 AM

Fig. 6

This photograph, taken in 1889 by Abdullah Freres, shows another panoply of captured arms. The two swords dating c. 1400 are of European origin, captured by the Ottomans during their conquest of Alexandria in 1517. They bear the Arsenal inscription from Alexandria.

The two halberds of the early 16th century are of German origin. The left one has distinctive features: The spike bears a small round mark, the blade has a small nick on the lower side (hardly visible on the low resolution scan), and the side straps are broken off at the fourth hole.

Fig. 7

A German halberd of exact the same shape as the one on the panoply. This halberd is not only a halberd of the same shape and workshop, it is the one depicted on the panoply! It has exactly the features as the one on the panoply: The same mark, the nick on the blade, and the later added lower parts of the side straps are welded on at the fourth hole. It was sold some times ago at auction.

Best

cornelistromp · 3rd June 2012, 11:22 AM

yes it is indeed the same, very nice catch.

best,

ashoka · 3rd June 2012, 08:35 PM

wishful thinking but I don't believe this is the same halberd, the tip is broken off and the shape of the last serration at the back is quite different...

I would assume many would have the mark in the same place on the backspike?

Swordfish · 3rd June 2012, 10:07 PM

The tip of the halberd 7 is a bit reshaped, the mark is not only at the same position, it is the same mark (only visible on the original scan of the panoply with a magnifying glass). The lower cog has a roundet tip (this was surely pointed when the halberd was new), the two cogs above have pointed tips.
What you need more?

2nd April 2012, 06:53 PM	#2
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	Hi, yes, sword nr 5 is indeed Oakeshott Type XIIA, I described it as a precursor/forerunner of the type XVIIIC (actually not as a type XVIIIC.) Because it has a blade with a kind of wedge towards the cutting edge, caused by the concave, this really makes it like type XVIIIC a pure cutting sword. The mid rib of the type XVIIIC causes a similar kind of wedge towards the cutting edge. When the geometry and balance of this XIIa sword are improved during the time it can evolve into a cutting sword like type XVIIIC. The group XIIa was created by oakeshott some time after his classification , I believe with the publication of ROMS, before these 2 hand swords with tapering blades and longer fullers were (incorrectly) placed in XIIIa. Original swords with arsenal inscription and Tamga actually are not known, I am very curious about each example which has both. about the type of sword # 1 is also much Published, for example by DG Alexander-European Swords in the collection of Istanbul partII. Swords captured directly by the ottomans or recieved as Sultan gifts. Sword #1 is placed in group XVII ,according to DG Alexander it is not possible to know when these swords fell in hands of the ottomans, only for the simple fact that during the 2nd half of the 15th century many battles have been fought. An almost identical sword as nr 1 is in Topkapi Museum Istanbul under # A14793 best, Last edited by cornelistromp; 3rd April 2012 at 03:14 PM.

13th April 2012, 02:43 PM	#3
Swordfish Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 129	Schiavona in the Military Museum Istanbul, grip replaced. Best Attached Images

3rd June 2012, 11:02 AM	#4
Swordfish Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 129	Fig. 6 This photograph, taken in 1889 by Abdullah Freres, shows another panoply of captured arms. The two swords dating c. 1400 are of European origin, captured by the Ottomans during their conquest of Alexandria in 1517. They bear the Arsenal inscription from Alexandria. The two halberds of the early 16th century are of German origin. The left one has distinctive features: The spike bears a small round mark, the blade has a small nick on the lower side (hardly visible on the low resolution scan), and the side straps are broken off at the fourth hole. Fig. 7 A German halberd of exact the same shape as the one on the panoply. This halberd is not only a halberd of the same shape and workshop, it is the one depicted on the panoply! It has exactly the features as the one on the panoply: The same mark, the nick on the blade, and the later added lower parts of the side straps are welded on at the fourth hole. It was sold some times ago at auction. Best Attached Images Last edited by Swordfish; 3rd June 2012 at 07:03 PM.

2nd April 2012, 05:25 PM	#1
Swordfish Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 129	Hi, I know the Alexandria group of swords, but these are not really captured from the Europeans. These swords are often treated in other publications, therefore I have not mentioned them here. It is surely right, that the majority of swords with Alexandria inscription do not bear the Tamga, but some do exist. A friend of mine has such a one in his collection. The sword can be dated stylistically c. 1430, the cross has already a simple finger-ring. Unfortunately I don`t know if the inscription is dated. Swords like fig.5 were surely in use during the second half of the 14th century, as well as during the first quarter of the 15th century, therefore I have dated it roughly c.1400. Sword fig.5 has a flat and flexible cutting blade with a fuller running down nearly all the length, therefore it can not be of type XVIIIc. The swords of this type have stiff blades of diamond section, even the ones with a fuller. If I have to categorise the blade, I would put it into type XIIa. Best

3rd June 2012, 11:22 AM	#5
cornelistromp Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 1,060	yes it is indeed the same, very nice catch. best,

3rd June 2012, 08:35 PM	#6
ashoka Member Join Date: May 2005 Posts: 61	wishful thinking but I don't believe this is the same halberd, the tip is broken off and the shape of the last serration at the back is quite different... I would assume many would have the mark in the same place on the backspike?

3rd June 2012, 10:07 PM	#7
Swordfish Member Join Date: Oct 2010 Posts: 129	The tip of the halberd 7 is a bit reshaped, the mark is not only at the same position, it is the same mark (only visible on the original scan of the panoply with a magnifying glass). The lower cog has a roundet tip (this was surely pointed when the halberd was new), the two cogs above have pointed tips. What you need more?