Takouba w XVII century European blade

Jim McDougall · 26th March 2012, 11:43 PM

A really interesting example, and I am in accord with most of the great observations here. This to me seems a late 17th into 18th century backsword blade, European of course. The marking are remarkably faithful to characteristic European types, but curious.

The 'globus cruciger' or cross and orb was widely popular as a talismanic device used with names, inscriptions and phrases. These letters seem similar to these kinds of additions to blades, and when in grouping that does not form an apparant word or name are usually acrostics. As far as I can determine there is not another listed which might explain this one, and the letters seem to be incongruent in form and in case, with a miniscule 'a'. The marking or device among the letters is inconsistant with these acrostics as well.

I am inclined to think these marks are added by a merchant in one of the entry centers where imports were dispersed to caravans, and who was familiar with these kinds of marks on European blades. The backsword blade was atypical for Tuareg takoubas, but in looking at the decoration, the four petal floral device resembles motif seen more to West Africa (Ive seen it on Sierra Leone daggers, and of course others I cant recall offhand). The 'rainguard' extension is also as noted, reminiscent of European type elements, as well as the bolsters (adabal) on the forte in line with the guard on some takouba.

Just my thoughts here, and looking forward to further ideas.

All the best,
Jim

Iain · 27th March 2012, 08:43 AM

So as Mauro already knows I would agree on 18th century backsword with the second edge locally sharpened.

The blade marks were applied at the same time in my opinion and I would defer to Jim's overall opinion on them.

Turning to the hilt, the four petal design is in fact found on most brass hilted takouba, both Tuareg and Hausa. See attached.

For me the features like the "rain guards" make this a truly unusual example of a takouba and I would be proud to own it myself. Congratulations again to Mauro!

Martin Lubojacky · 27th March 2012, 11:04 AM

I also agree the blade is probably from 18th century backsword (French ??). As far as four petal design, it is true - from Sierra Leone through Bidda arm daggers to Berber brass bracelets (e.g. in Djebel Nafusa near Tripolis). I also saw them engraved on the sheaths of long and simple yatagans I found on the Djerba Island (Tunisia).
Very probably it is a fantasy - but couldn´t the mark on the blade locally develop from the so called imperial "pome" ?
Regards,
Martin

Mauro · 27th March 2012, 02:33 PM

I agree with Jim and Iain that the blade is XVII to XVIII century but may be somebody would be able to add some more information on this type of blade. Usually after the XVII century, with the introduction of more modern armies, the blades changed their style and became more standardized. This is, to my knowledge, an old style blade. Regarding the letters V.Danv I am not sure they are incongruent because the only capitol letter is the D and ,may be, the first V. V could indicate the name and D the first letter of the surname. Such surnames Danv…. are very rare in Italian names and I would say are more common in northern Europe from France, Austria, Belgium, Netherlands etc. May be it is only a speculation !! I am not able to say if the “globus cruciger” was applied in Africa or it was originally made in Europe. I would favour this latter hypothesis because of the similarities of the engraving. I add some similar marks reported in Morel (1943) and in Lhote 1954 and attributed to different parts of Europe. The maker mark in the takouba is slightly different but I would say in the same “family”. Is anyone able to tell me the significance of the green color that in this takouba is found inside the petals ? It is also found in many scabbards of the Tuareg, Hausa and also Mandingo knives and swords.

Iain · 27th March 2012, 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mauro

I agree with Jim and Iain that the blade is XVII to XVIII century but may be somebody would be able to add some more information on this type of blade. Usually after the XVII century, with the introduction of more modern armies, the blades changed their style and became more standardized. This is, to my knowledge, an old style blade. Regarding the letters V.Danv I am not sure they are incongruent because the only capitol letter is the D and ,may be, the first V. V could indicate the name and D the first letter of the surname. Such surnames Danv…. are very rare in Italian names and I would say are more common in northern Europe from France, Austria, Belgium, Netherlands etc. May be it is only a speculation !! I am not able to say if the “globus cruciger” was applied in Africa or it was originally made in Europe. I would favour this latter hypothesis because of the similarities of the engraving. I add some similar marks reported in Morel (1943) and in Lhote 1954 and attributed to different parts of Europe. The maker mark in the takouba is slightly different but I would say in the same “family”. Is anyone able to tell me the significance of the green color that in this takouba is found inside the petals ? It is also found in many scabbards of the Tuareg, Hausa and also Mandingo knives and swords.

Hi Mauro, I see no reason why it could be 17th century, I simply don't know enough about backsword blades to say so I tend to be more cautious.

I don't recall seeing anything with such a pronounced ricasso block on early backswords, but I have to admit I have not studied the sword type closely so probably there are such features on earlier blades as well.

I would say Danv is not a common name anywhere I'm aware of and some Googling makes it look almost nonexistent! The lettering is odd to me because of the mix of upper and lower case. By the 17th century upper and lower case letters were established and to have the 'a' in lower case and the then 'n' in upper case is quite odd. If this was a stamp applied for an owner in Europe, I would except someone with the money to own the sword, to have the ability to go to a shop with the right stet of stamps for the letters!

With the tree of life/globe motif, it is odd in that I have never seen it with the crossing line inside the globe curved... it is always straight. Again a strange feature if it was done in a workshop in Europe I think.

Green or azegzaw should have fairly standard symbolism in Tuareg culture I think. It can represent fertile land I think. For swords I'm not aware of a specific symbolism though.

Mauro · 27th March 2012, 10:00 PM

I did not explained myself properly. I suggested that D'Anv could be an abbreviation for D'Anville, D'Anverse, etc. but it simply a speculation. Thanks Iain for a good explanation of the use of the green colour in the sword of the people of the desert. Rehgarding the type of blade for sure Jim has much more experience than me. After to have posted the "globus cruciger" I searched in the forum and I found a long discussion on these maker marks. Sorry people if I did not check before

Iain · 27th March 2012, 10:19 PM

Hi Mauro, as an abbreviation it could make more sense for sure. But I still find the lettering odd for the period and I would expect an engraving (not stamps) in the case of a sword owner.

If it's a maker's stamp then I have good hopes we can find some record as other swords with the stamp should exist.

Maybe some of the more specialized European collectors can help. I will send you a PM.

Mauro · 27th March 2012, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Lubojacky

I also agree the blade is probably from 18th century backsword (French ??). As far as four petal design, it is true - from Sierra Leone through Bidda arm daggers to Berber brass bracelets (e.g. in Djebel Nafusa near Tripolis). I also saw them engraved on the sheaths of long and simple yatagans I found on the Djerba Island (Tunisia).
Very probably it is a fantasy - but couldn´t the mark on the blade locally develop from the so called imperial "pome" ?
Regards,
Martin

Sorry my ignorance Martin but how it looks like an "imperial pome" ?

27th March 2012, 08:43 AM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	So as Mauro already knows I would agree on 18th century backsword with the second edge locally sharpened. The blade marks were applied at the same time in my opinion and I would defer to Jim's overall opinion on them. Turning to the hilt, the four petal design is in fact found on most brass hilted takouba, both Tuareg and Hausa. See attached. For me the features like the "rain guards" make this a truly unusual example of a takouba and I would be proud to own it myself. Congratulations again to Mauro! Attached Images

27th March 2012, 02:33 PM	#4
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	I agree with Jim and Iain that the blade is XVII to XVIII century but may be somebody would be able to add some more information on this type of blade. Usually after the XVII century, with the introduction of more modern armies, the blades changed their style and became more standardized. This is, to my knowledge, an old style blade. Regarding the letters V.Danv I am not sure they are incongruent because the only capitol letter is the D and ,may be, the first V. V could indicate the name and D the first letter of the surname. Such surnames Danv…. are very rare in Italian names and I would say are more common in northern Europe from France, Austria, Belgium, Netherlands etc. May be it is only a speculation !! I am not able to say if the “globus cruciger” was applied in Africa or it was originally made in Europe. I would favour this latter hypothesis because of the similarities of the engraving. I add some similar marks reported in Morel (1943) and in Lhote 1954 and attributed to different parts of Europe. The maker mark in the takouba is slightly different but I would say in the same “family”. Is anyone able to tell me the significance of the green color that in this takouba is found inside the petals ? It is also found in many scabbards of the Tuareg, Hausa and also Mandingo knives and swords. Attached Images

26th March 2012, 11:43 PM	#1
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	A really interesting example, and I am in accord with most of the great observations here. This to me seems a late 17th into 18th century backsword blade, European of course. The marking are remarkably faithful to characteristic European types, but curious. The 'globus cruciger' or cross and orb was widely popular as a talismanic device used with names, inscriptions and phrases. These letters seem similar to these kinds of additions to blades, and when in grouping that does not form an apparant word or name are usually acrostics. As far as I can determine there is not another listed which might explain this one, and the letters seem to be incongruent in form and in case, with a miniscule 'a'. The marking or device among the letters is inconsistant with these acrostics as well. I am inclined to think these marks are added by a merchant in one of the entry centers where imports were dispersed to caravans, and who was familiar with these kinds of marks on European blades. The backsword blade was atypical for Tuareg takoubas, but in looking at the decoration, the four petal floral device resembles motif seen more to West Africa (Ive seen it on Sierra Leone daggers, and of course others I cant recall offhand). The 'rainguard' extension is also as noted, reminiscent of European type elements, as well as the bolsters (adabal) on the forte in line with the guard on some takouba. Just my thoughts here, and looking forward to further ideas. All the best, Jim

27th March 2012, 11:04 AM	#3
Martin Lubojacky Member Join Date: May 2008 Location: Czech Republic Posts: 843	I also agree the blade is probably from 18th century backsword (French ??). As far as four petal design, it is true - from Sierra Leone through Bidda arm daggers to Berber brass bracelets (e.g. in Djebel Nafusa near Tripolis). I also saw them engraved on the sheaths of long and simple yatagans I found on the Djerba Island (Tunisia). Very probably it is a fantasy - but couldn´t the mark on the blade locally develop from the so called imperial "pome" ? Regards, Martin

27th March 2012, 10:00 PM	#6
Mauro Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 83	I did not explained myself properly. I suggested that D'Anv could be an abbreviation for D'Anville, D'Anverse, etc. but it simply a speculation. Thanks Iain for a good explanation of the use of the green colour in the sword of the people of the desert. Rehgarding the type of blade for sure Jim has much more experience than me. After to have posted the "globus cruciger" I searched in the forum and I found a long discussion on these maker marks. Sorry people if I did not check before

27th March 2012, 10:19 PM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Mauro, as an abbreviation it could make more sense for sure. But I still find the lettering odd for the period and I would expect an engraving (not stamps) in the case of a sword owner. If it's a maker's stamp then I have good hopes we can find some record as other swords with the stamp should exist. Maybe some of the more specialized European collectors can help. I will send you a PM.