Recently made Omani Kattara / Saif

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You have stated that the so called dance sword blades flex thru 90 degrees. It has been stated that this one does not, so how can you now say it is a dance sword?
Am I missing something here?

Salaams kahnjar1. Look at the sword. It is a classic design . The fact that the blade may be for some reason not springy enough to fit the criteria of aproximate 90 degree bend is outside my control. Its a brand new item... who knows what specification that factory is using? One thing for sure... If the blade is not flexible enough they will be left with their shelves full of useless dancing swords...but they may well be selling them onto the unsuspecting tourist market...( that I can tell you is what is happening) Correct your terminology since these are not "so called dancing swords"... They are dancing swords for pageant only. Perhaps that is what you are missing?
~ see anecdotal proof at "Kattara for comments." # 299. ~

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Salam Ibrahim,

I think the anecdote that you linked does not prove much. I think it specifically speaks about MODERN made kattaras (ones with similar fittings to the one here) and I think we all agree that the new ones are likely to be dance only. The problem is assuming that just because the new ones are dance only, therefore the older ones are dance only too. It simply doesnt add up :-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

I think the anecdote that you linked does not prove much. I think it specifically speaks about MODERN made kattaras (ones with similar fittings to the one here) and I think we all agree that the new ones are likely to be dance only. The problem is assuming that just because the new ones are dance only, therefore the older ones are dance only too. It simply doesnt add up :-)

Salaams A.alnakkas. Simply adding it up;

Reference A; Omani National Museum.
Reference B; National archive the UAE.
Reference C; The masterwork of Richardson and Dorr.
Reference D; Latest anecdotal evidence.
Reference E; This Forums "Kattara for comment" thread.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[katana]

Salaams Ibrahim,
I have looked at the blade of this saif to determine functional or not. The blade is comparable to the Takouba both in length and the spatulate tip. I had a late 19thC / early 20th C Takouba which is/was deemed 'functional' and were used as weapons at that time. The blade on the saif is less flexible, slightly thicker and better quality.

If this blade had been hilted Tabouka style, the functionality of the resulting sword would not be in question. I agree that a lack of guard would be a worry, but there are a number of swords that have little or no guard.
The fact this Saif may have been made in a factory is not a 'bad thing'. Swords have been made in 'factories' for hundreds of years in Sheffield, Birmingham and Solingen. But, if made in a factory I would have thought that their specification would be the same. There is no doubt in my mind that this sword could be used as a weapon. It 'handles' well, seems well balanced, especially when used in slashing cuts (the spatula tip reinforces this function).

This blade doesn't fit the criteria of a dance blade, but you could argue that the guardless hilt does. Perhaps this blade was an older one, over cleaned and re-worked ? Perhaps this blade was made to be functional ? Were the Saifs ever carried as personal protection ?

As a footnote, is there any evidence of blades made in Oman being sold in Africa ? The thinking is ....could some Omani blades be used, rehilted as Tabouka ?

Kind Regards David

[Iain]

Originally Posted by katana

As a footnote, is there any evidence of blades made in Oman being sold in Africa ? The thinking is ....could some Omani blades be used, rehilted as Tabouka ?

Kind Regards David

I'll jump in here for a sec. To my knowledge there is really no reason to think this is the case. This basic pattern was in plentiful supply it would seem from European sources and from local manufacture. The resemblance in blade profiles I think is simply due to local copying of similar European patterns.

It is possible that there was importation from the Red Sea area, but I have never run across a reference to it in the period accounts from the Sahel region - just references to local manufacture and European imports.

[katana]

Originally Posted by Iain

I'll jump in here for a sec. To my knowledge there is really no reason to think this is the case. This basic pattern was in plentiful supply it would seem from European sources and from local manufacture. The resemblance in blade profiles I think is simply due to local copying of similar European patterns.

It is possible that there was importation from the Red Sea area, but I have never run across a reference to it in the period accounts from the Sahel region - just references to local manufacture and European imports.

Hi Iain,
thanks for the input, I was thinking of a 'supply' in modern times, say the last 2 or 3 decades .... it was just a thought, as the blade on this Saif seems an anomaly ie not usual for a dance blade.

All the best
David

[Iain]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi Iain,
thanks for the input, I was thinking of a 'supply' in modern times, say the last 2 or 3 decades .... it was just a thought, as the blade on this Saif seems an anomaly ie not usual for a dance blade.

All the best
David

Aha I see what you mean now. In that case, I'd say even more unlikely as there is quite a nice cottage industry still turning out takouba blades. I don't think there's a market to justify the expense of importing them in modern times.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by katana

Salaams Ibrahim,
I have looked at the blade of this saif to determine functional or not. The blade is comparable to the Takouba both in length and the spatulate tip. I had a late 19thC / early 20th C Takouba which is/was deemed 'functional' and were used as weapons at that time. The blade on the saif is less flexible, slightly thicker and better quality.

If this blade had been hilted Tabouka style, the functionality of the resulting sword would not be in question. I agree that a lack of guard would be a worry, but there are a number of swords that have little or no guard.
The fact this Saif may have been made in a factory is not a 'bad thing'. Swords have been made in 'factories' for hundreds of years in Sheffield, Birmingham and Solingen. But, if made in a factory I would have thought that their specification would be the same. There is no doubt in my mind that this sword could be used as a weapon. It 'handles' well, seems well balanced, especially when used in slashing cuts (the spatula tip reinforces this function).

This blade doesn't fit the criteria of a dance blade, but you could argue that the guardless hilt does. Perhaps this blade was an older one, over cleaned and re-worked ? Perhaps this blade was made to be functional ? Were the Saifs ever carried as personal protection ?

As a footnote, is there any evidence of blades made in Oman being sold in Africa ? The thinking is ....could some Omani blades be used, rehilted as Tabouka ?

Kind Regards David

Salaams katana ~ No drift into Africa sword style happenend with this blade. Even in Zanzibar the blade was only used by people of Muscat origin not by native Zanzibaris. In fact as a side issue one of the things I loooked at fairly early on was seeing if this type of blade(flexible round tipped) had spilled over into any other countries ~ I considered the present day UAE to be part of the Oman in the timezone we are looking at(17th to 20th C) so I was looking more at Yemen and Saudia and the red sea hub. I was also looking for evidence of spillage as it was thought that these could have been European trade blades. There was no evidence..this seems to be a home grown blade... Omani.

This is specifically for the Funoon, the pageant and dance routine of Oman. It took over from the old battle weapon Sayf Yamaani as the new fashion of heraldic dance in honour of its predecessor and those who fought...its all on the other thread at "Kattara for comment."

A lot of people have been duped by this sword as it appears to be a warlike sword and they sharpen it to razor edge but only to honour their forefathers. It is however only a dance accoutrement not a weapon ..In the case of such a sword being made with a less than flexible blade ... it would never sell to an Omani but could go on the market to visitors... I sold 10 last week as gift items they are brilliant.

Please have a look at the latest anecdotal evidence or in fact hang on whilst I download it to here ...Dancing Swords. Omani Sayf.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Salaams Reference note for Forum library.
From http://www.thenational.ae/news/.../...ng-trade-in-rak
Anecdotal Evidence; The Omani Sayf; Dancing Swords Only.

Quote "RAS AL KHAIMAH // In the markets of the old town, swords are easily available and readily sold to mountain tribesmen.

"All Shehhi [tribesmen] should have swords," said Azziz al Shehhi, 22. "It's nice for dancing, not for fighting. These are for gifts, for celebrations."
Mr al Shehhi owns four swords, four traditional knives and two rifles that belonged to his father. But the party favourite was always the sword, an essential for any mountain celebration, he said.

Strong swordsmanship is the mark of a good wedding for mountain tribes like the Shehhu and Habus. Swords are not raised in combat, but thrown metres in the air and then caught.

The swords are forged in the workshops of the old RAK market, many of which have operated for more than three decades.
Shopkeepers must be licensed to sell swords, but are not required to keep records of how many they sell or to whom.
They make them according to demand. Some months they may sell only one or two, and other months they will sell dozens, especially in the summer wedding season.

Swords can be bought in glass cases as gifts and are a traditional reward at sporting events such as camel races. More often they are sold as an accessory for weddings, along with the canes and the yerz, a tribal axe.
Swords are sold blunt so men can catch them while dancing, but can be easily sharpened. Honing usually comes at the behest of elders, who want swords sharpened to a fine edge to honour their forefathers.
Zahee Ahmed, 28, of Pakistan, sells to tribesmen, sheikhs and tourists, as well as to shops in Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah. He said he had yet to hear of any case of swords being used as a weapon. "It's not dangerous," said Mr Ahmed. "We make them for celebration, not for killing. This is not for fighting, it is only for culture. The man is crazy if he will fight."
There is no age requirement on who can buy a sword, but some stores will only sell to Emiratis.

For many years, bargain hunters would often skip the markets of old RAK and buy from the family of Charchambi Daad Mohammed, a Baluchi axe and sword maker who crafted the weapons in his house.
Until last year, he roamed the streets of the Nakheel market with a bundle of swords and axes under his arm to be sold to whoever had the cash.
The swords business got a boost last December after Fujairah's first annual Al Saif Traditional Sword Competition, in which TV viewers and audience members voted by SMS for their favourite sword dancer.
RAK swordsmiths reported a sharp rise in demand for a month afterwards". Unquote.

Having said all that there are some monumental people in history that thought this was a battlesword and I can only think the Omanis then had as good a laugh as they are getting now ...but its all in good fun... When asked "Is this the sword Excalliber? The Omani souk owner will reply ... oooh yes ! Is this sword made of moonrock ?... OoHH YES ! aM i A TEAPOT... OOOH YES!! Well you know what I mean. Its what they think you want to hear. It makes for interesting research.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[katana]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams katana ~ A lot of people have been duped by this sword as it appears to be a warlike sword and they sharpen it to razor edge but only to honour their forefathers. It is however only a dance accoutrement not a weapon ..In the case of such a sword being made with a less than flexible blade ... it would never sell to an Omani but could go on the market to visitors... I sold 10 last week as gift items they are brilliant.

Please have a look at the latest anecdotal evidence or in fact hang on whilst I download it to here ...Dancing Swords. Omani Sayf.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Salaams Reference note for Forum library.
From http://www.thenational.ae/news/.../...ng-trade-in-rak
Anecdotal Evidence; The Omani Sayf; Dancing Swords Only.

Quote "RAS AL KHAIMAH // In the markets of the old town, swords are easily available and readily sold to mountain tribesmen.

"All Shehhi [tribesmen] should have swords," said Azziz al Shehhi, 22. "It's nice for dancing, not for fighting. These are for gifts, for celebrations."
Mr al Shehhi owns four swords, four traditional knives and two rifles that belonged to his father. But the party favourite was always the sword, an essential for any mountain celebration, he said.

Strong swordsmanship is the mark of a good wedding for mountain tribes like the Shehhu and Habus. Swords are not raised in combat, but thrown metres in the air and then caught.

The swords are forged in the workshops of the old RAK market, many of which have operated for more than three decades.
Shopkeepers must be licensed to sell swords, but are not required to keep records of how many they sell or to whom.
They make them according to demand. Some months they may sell only one or two, and other months they will sell dozens, especially in the summer wedding season.

Swords can be bought in glass cases as gifts and are a traditional reward at sporting events such as camel races. More often they are sold as an accessory for weddings, along with the canes and the yerz, a tribal axe.
Swords are sold blunt so men can catch them while dancing, but can be easily sharpened. Honing usually comes at the behest of elders, who want swords sharpened to a fine edge to honour their forefathers.
Zahee Ahmed, 28, of Pakistan, sells to tribesmen, sheikhs and tourists, as well as to shops in Abu Dhabi, Dubai and Sharjah. He said he had yet to hear of any case of swords being used as a weapon. "It's not dangerous," said Mr Ahmed. "We make them for celebration, not for killing. This is not for fighting, it is only for culture. The man is crazy if he will fight."
There is no age requirement on who can buy a sword, but some stores will only sell to Emiratis..................

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Ibrahiim,
very interesting, several thoughts .....any idea why sharpening the blade honours the ancestors, after all the dance sword is symbolic of a weapon .....surely this would be enough. Secondly, the makers have to sell the swords blunt ( I am assuming this is a requirement of the licence) yet, in the case of mine, the blade would produce a fine edge if honed. Why provide such a blade (a better quality steel) when they should generally remain blunt? It almost seems that the swordmakers are able to produce weapon grade blades without 'officially' supplying a weapon, a 'loop-hole' as it were.
Can we assume that the Elders whom have sharpened blades do not use them for dance. Is it possible that there are differing quality of blades both in type of steel and its flexibilty, so that a blade type could be specified if it is to be sharpened ? Thank you

Kind Regards David

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by katana

Salaams Ibrahiim,
very interesting, several thoughts .....any idea why sharpening the blade honours the ancestors, after all the dance sword is symbolic of a weapon .....surely this would be enough. Secondly, the makers have to sell the swords blunt ( I am assuming this is a requirement of the licence) yet, in the case of mine, the blade would produce a fine edge if honed. Why provide such a blade (a better quality steel) when they should generally remain blunt? It almost seems that the swordmakers are able to produce weapon grade blades without 'officially' supplying a weapon, a 'loop-hole' as it were.
Can we assume that the Elders whom have sharpened blades do not use them for dance. Is it possible that there are differing quality of blades both in type of steel and its flexibilty, so that a blade type could be specified if it is to be sharpened ? Thank you

Kind Regards David

Salaams katana ~ There appears to be some chivalrous/honourable reason why dancing blades are made sharp and of the thousands of those blades I have seen to date they are indeed all sharp ... No one would dare turn out on parade with a blunt job... except of course children who carry small versions of the same sword. I can see how the thinking goes... after all their forefathers turned out with the actual fighting sword (Sayf Yamaani ) many years ago and that was razor sharp so it appears in honour of those people~ the ancestors of old. Their forefathers. Relatively this is a new item only appearing "perhaps" in about 1800 to 1850 in the al bu saaidi dynasty and perhaps in the same time frame that the curved Kattara was received into Oman. That research continues.
Blade quality varies. Some have less flexibility and some don't spring back straight... these are considered of low quality since the whole idea is to make the blade vibrate whilst dancing and parading..The entire "Funoon/Razha" performance is extremely warlike thus many visitors go away with the impression that this is a weapon when in fact it is not... and never was. The weapon that it superceded in the pageant "The Sayf Yamaani" was the true fighting battle sword. That weapon, essentially, retired to Icon status in the same timeframe and anyway it was made generally obselete in the broader sense because of gunpowder weapons in the same way that spears became obselete. I have one Sayf Yamaani being Iconized at this time with the royal hilt etc.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1. Look at the sword. It is a classic design . The fact that the blade may be for some reason not springy enough to fit the criteria of aproximate 90 degree bend is outside my control. Its a brand new item... who knows what specification that factory is using? One thing for sure... If the blade is not flexible enough they will be left with their shelves full of useless dancing swords...but they may well be selling them onto the unsuspecting tourist market...( that I can tell you is what is happening) Correct your terminology since these are not "so called dancing swords"... They are dancing swords for pageant only. Perhaps that is what you are missing?
~ see anecdotal proof at "Kattara for comments." # 299. ~

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I agree it is classic design and NEW MADE, as it would appear are a lot now being sold on various websites based in the middle east. I find it interesting that there appears to be no mention against these advertised items mentioning "dance". One draws from this that either the seller is not aware of their use, or is not perhaps telling the whole story.

[ariel]

I have an analogous question: what about the kattaras that do not bend 90 degrees and are not vibrating? The majority I have seen are just like that, mine included, and it is not new, with pretty sturdy and crude blade and a "genoese" gurda marking. Does it make sense that there would be 2 different "models", one for dancing and another for fighting?

I see not so much problem with "straying into logic", but rather straying out of it. Even European court swords were meant not only for show, but were manufactured under decent fighting standards. Male sword dancing is a sacral experience in all cultures, and creating an intentionally non-battle-ready swords for such an activity would be utterly illogical. Especially in a close, "dark age", society like 19-cen. Oman.
BTW, my quilloned Kattara has no markings. Plain, sturdy, locally-made, unsophisticated killer. Love it!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

I have an analogous question: what about the kattaras that do not bend 90 degrees and are not vibrating? The majority I have seen are just like that, mine included, and it is not new, with pretty sturdy and crude blade and a "genoese" gurda marking. Does it make sense that there would be 2 different "models", one for dancing and another for fighting?

I see not so much problem with "straying into logic", but rather straying out of it. Even European court swords were meant not only for show, but were manufactured under decent fighting standards. Male sword dancing is a sacral experience in all cultures, and creating an intentionally non-battle-ready swords for such an activity would be utterly illogical. Especially in a close, "dark age", society like 19-cen. Oman.
BTW, my quilloned Kattara has no markings. Plain, sturdy, locally-made, unsophisticated killer. Love it!

Salaams ariel ~ Last point first ... You are right about the old omani battle sword ... its a Quilloned killer ! ... They call all straight swords here Sayf... Thus the important detail of passing that name and the shield on in what looks like the mid 19thC. Interesting that you call it "locally made" however as that isnt quite proven yet and its nickname is Sayf Yamaani it could be a Hadramaut job though I suspect Nizwa . The Omani Dancing flexible long sword defies logic... I agree. I am about to wax lyrical upon the subject on Kattara for comments... please join the discussion there if you can.

First paragraph which I missed initially... Again I think you refer to Sayfs; straight blades and in this case apparently mounted on Omani long hilts. In the Omani jargon; If they dont bend through 90 degrees from the tip they aren't Omani dancing swords. They may have been rehilted in Muscat after 1970 and sold to a visitor... or are Red Sea blades of some sort. There are stiff Saudia, Yemeni and Ethiopian blades(European in the case of the latter) that fit the description and as an interesting thought some resemble Schiavona blades. I see a lot in Muscat souk and often they have fake running woolf marks etc.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.