Is this Sham Wootz?? On a Wahabi Jambiya??

[AJ1356]

Not really familiar with this but Shaam also could be written as Sham is the ancient name for Syria (where Damascuss is) would it be that is one name for Damascuss patern? Or it could just mean fake

[Richard Furrer]

I would say it is not crucible steel, but something else.
I would say the same to several of those book photos as well.

It is still very nice.
Ric

[archer]

Ric, Your input is always valued your hands on experience in making and forging shear and crucible steels gives first hand expertise. Your comment that this is something else, has impact. Does the apparent pattern loss Lew mentions give us a clue?

Alex, Your wootz opinions have always been of interest. This could be Mechanically produced. I've included a couple of photos where I thought to
be the result of scarfing. the thicker pattern at the hilt may be the result of
extra forging required in shaping the hilt vs. the finer lines toward the blade
tip. I'm guessing that this pattern was visible even unetched.

Lew, Your point about the disappearance of the pattern in the hilt area may
well be a clue to how the blade was made. Most etched Jambiyas show a V
of some sort where they were quenched in tempering. I've included odd lines
on My other Wahabite Jambiya and a photo of one with typical V but the pattern etched again towards the hilt???

AJ, Your correct Sham is a lesser quality Crucible steel and no doubt the root for the English word " sham". Sham Shir always gives Me pause. Are you serving in Afghanistan now?

Thank you all for your interest and great input.

[ALEX]

interesting thread! there's another related link. Also, below are close-ups of pattern weld Ottoman blade, Russian wootz shashka blade (presumably by Anosov), and Ottoman Pala sham blade. All share similar visual effects and hard to tell which one is which. One thing to consider is that Sham is mostly low-contrast pattern, and if it shows clear and high-contrast - it's unlikely sham.

[archer]

Shots from Oriental Arms Search for Sham and Low contrast Sham. added a couple Damascus as well. To help us decide with visual aid.

[Richard Furrer]

Archer that "V" is a matter of cooling the steel in the quench..notice on the first the edges are darker photos 1 and 4 and the "V" points to the tip...as the blade is quenched it cools faster on the thin edges and then the center...so when dipped in, held and then removed the center will still be hot...which make the "V" pattern.

photo 5 shows the "V" pointing the other way..which is really not possible on the typical quench.

The photos from Oriental Arms appears to me to be a different material source than what crucible steel forms..far closer to well forged shear steel or bloomery steels with levels of phosphorous. It is in fact possible to get a surface pattern when you have no carbon in the iron at all...though I believe all those pictured are in fact some form of steel...I can not say with any authority what that steel is.

I'd like to chemically analyze some of that material.....I am at a point now where I have seen many things and some of my opinions have changed even since last year...I'm trying to be opinionated for all the right reasons and not because I simply have not seen something before. To say something "IS" something is a bold statement...and knowing the chemistry or how it looks under a microscope is one more page to the book so to speak.

In fact I am gathering samples of various ethnic blades for that reason...to create a sample body.

Whatever it is it obviously was a traditional material...I am not saying any of these are not old...just arguably not crucible steel. I would throw none of then out of my collection should they one day join.



Ric

[Jeff D]

I vote it is acid etched. As stated by Lew.

Jeff

[archer]

Lew and Jeff while it's possible the blade pattern was etched. the area near the
hilt may be the burnishing sometimes done with a scratched design on Omani and Yemeni Khanjars. Designs hard to see and I no longer have it. I'm sure you are familiar with it.

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by Jeff D

I vote it is acid etched. As stated by Lew.

Jeff

Jeff,
It is indeed acid etched..as are most all the crucible steel blades to show anything other than a mere hint of pattern when the light is just right, but the pattern which the acid reveals is in the steel not simply acid etched into its surface with a resist.

Ric

[Jeff D]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

Jeff,
It is indeed acid etched..as are most all the crucible steel blades to show anything other than a mere hint of pattern when the light is just right, but the pattern which the acid reveals is in the steel not simply acid etched into its surface with a resist.

Ric

Hi Ric,

No not acid etched to bring out the wootz pattern, but a surface acid etched pattern. Very similar to the method used on European presentation blades. I will see if I can find a reference.

Jeff