Recently made Omani Kattara / Saif

[katana]

Hi A.alnakkas,
thanks, I'm quite pleased with it ....much better quality than I thought it would be (only had pictures before)

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams katana ~ Nice new Omani flexi bladed 3 fuller ( Abu thalatha musayil) SAYF. Not a fighting weapon but a pageantry sword only used in the Omani Funoon in the Razha or sword genre and mimic fighting posturing (al yalaah!) where the idea is to score the winning point by touching the thumb (the left one holding the ters shield of the opponent with the round tip.) Kindly see the big thread on the discussion at Kattara for comments. We were meeting friends today and around the table was plus of 100 years experience in this sword; we all have stores selling such pieces.. represented were Muscat, Nizwa and Buraimi shop owners and there was a fair amount of mirth about during the discussion of dancing swords as weapons. Naturally these things could cause a load of damage but they simply aren't and never were, battle swords... Same way that a farmhouse table leg isn't a war club... but it would hurt !

Salaams,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salaams Ibrahiim,
I can see your point, but the blade does not fit your description of a dancing sword blade.

Blade is not flexible enough to bend 90 degrees ....this one around 45 degrees similar to a lot of British regulation swords I have in my collection. The steel seems of good quality and as mention before the edges are sharp ...a gentle honing would create a very keen edge. "touching the thumb" of a 'dance' partner with this particular blade could leave them 'thumb-less'.
I am not saying that this is a battle sword .....but its not a dance one either. Perhaps this was made to order with a more functional blade

Kind Regards David

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by katana

Hi A.alnakkas,
thanks, I'm quite pleased with it ....much better quality than I thought it would be (only had pictures before)







Salaams Ibrahiim,
I can see your point, but the blade does not fit your description of a dancing sword blade.

Blade is not flexible enough to bend 90 degrees ....this one around 45 degrees similar to a lot of British regulation swords I have in my collection. The steel seems of good quality and as mention before the edges are sharp ...a gentle honing would create a very keen edge. "touching the thumb" of a 'dance' partner with this particular blade could leave them 'thumb-less'.
I am not saying that this is a battle sword .....but its not a dance one either. Perhaps this was made to order with a more functional blade

Kind Regards David

Salaams katana ~ This is a dancing sayf of that we have no doubt. In fact it looks like a Salalah job... made recently in a new factory . Where was it found ... ? Yes touching the opponents thumb( the shield hand thumb) sounds hazzardous I agee and it amazes me how not more thumbless people are about. As for lethality, some are razor sharpand I have seen demos of people chopping all sorts of stuff (melons bottles of water ) in half with these but in the entirity of Omani history it has never been a battle weapon as such. Pageant only.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams all~ Please see anecdotal proof at "Kattara for comments." # 299. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams katana ~ This is a dancing sayf of that we have no doubt. In fact it looks like a Salalah job... made recently in a new factory . Where was it found ... ? Yes touching the opponents thumb( the shield hand thumb) sounds hazzardous I agee and it amazes me how not more thumbless people are about. As for lethality, some are razor sharpand I have seen demos of people chopping all sorts of stuff (melons bottles of water ) in half with these but in the entirity of Omani history it has never been a battle weapon as such. Pageant only.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You have stated that the so called dance sword blades flex thru 90 degrees. It has been stated that this one does not, so how can you now say it is a dance sword?
Am I missing something here?

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by kahnjar1

You seem to be contradicting yourself. You have stated that the so called dance sword blades flex thru 90 degrees. It has been stated that this one does not, so how can you now say it is a dance sword?
Am I missing something here?

Salaams kahnjar1. Look at the sword. It is a classic design . The fact that the blade may be for some reason not springy enough to fit the criteria of aproximate 90 degree bend is outside my control. Its a brand new item... who knows what specification that factory is using? One thing for sure... If the blade is not flexible enough they will be left with their shelves full of useless dancing swords...but they may well be selling them onto the unsuspecting tourist market...( that I can tell you is what is happening) Correct your terminology since these are not "so called dancing swords"... They are dancing swords for pageant only. Perhaps that is what you are missing?
~ see anecdotal proof at "Kattara for comments." # 299. ~

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Salam Ibrahim,

I think the anecdote that you linked does not prove much. I think it specifically speaks about MODERN made kattaras (ones with similar fittings to the one here) and I think we all agree that the new ones are likely to be dance only. The problem is assuming that just because the new ones are dance only, therefore the older ones are dance only too. It simply doesnt add up :-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

I think the anecdote that you linked does not prove much. I think it specifically speaks about MODERN made kattaras (ones with similar fittings to the one here) and I think we all agree that the new ones are likely to be dance only. The problem is assuming that just because the new ones are dance only, therefore the older ones are dance only too. It simply doesnt add up :-)

Salaams A.alnakkas. Simply adding it up;

Reference A; Omani National Museum.
Reference B; National archive the UAE.
Reference C; The masterwork of Richardson and Dorr.
Reference D; Latest anecdotal evidence.
Reference E; This Forums "Kattara for comment" thread.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[katana]

Salaams Ibrahim,
I have looked at the blade of this saif to determine functional or not. The blade is comparable to the Takouba both in length and the spatulate tip. I had a late 19thC / early 20th C Takouba which is/was deemed 'functional' and were used as weapons at that time. The blade on the saif is less flexible, slightly thicker and better quality.

If this blade had been hilted Tabouka style, the functionality of the resulting sword would not be in question. I agree that a lack of guard would be a worry, but there are a number of swords that have little or no guard.
The fact this Saif may have been made in a factory is not a 'bad thing'. Swords have been made in 'factories' for hundreds of years in Sheffield, Birmingham and Solingen. But, if made in a factory I would have thought that their specification would be the same. There is no doubt in my mind that this sword could be used as a weapon. It 'handles' well, seems well balanced, especially when used in slashing cuts (the spatula tip reinforces this function).

This blade doesn't fit the criteria of a dance blade, but you could argue that the guardless hilt does. Perhaps this blade was an older one, over cleaned and re-worked ? Perhaps this blade was made to be functional ? Were the Saifs ever carried as personal protection ?

As a footnote, is there any evidence of blades made in Oman being sold in Africa ? The thinking is ....could some Omani blades be used, rehilted as Tabouka ?

Kind Regards David

[kahnjar1]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams kahnjar1. Look at the sword. It is a classic design . The fact that the blade may be for some reason not springy enough to fit the criteria of aproximate 90 degree bend is outside my control. Its a brand new item... who knows what specification that factory is using? One thing for sure... If the blade is not flexible enough they will be left with their shelves full of useless dancing swords...but they may well be selling them onto the unsuspecting tourist market...( that I can tell you is what is happening) Correct your terminology since these are not "so called dancing swords"... They are dancing swords for pageant only. Perhaps that is what you are missing?
~ see anecdotal proof at "Kattara for comments." # 299. ~

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I agree it is classic design and NEW MADE, as it would appear are a lot now being sold on various websites based in the middle east. I find it interesting that there appears to be no mention against these advertised items mentioning "dance". One draws from this that either the seller is not aware of their use, or is not perhaps telling the whole story.

[ariel]

I have an analogous question: what about the kattaras that do not bend 90 degrees and are not vibrating? The majority I have seen are just like that, mine included, and it is not new, with pretty sturdy and crude blade and a "genoese" gurda marking. Does it make sense that there would be 2 different "models", one for dancing and another for fighting?

I see not so much problem with "straying into logic", but rather straying out of it. Even European court swords were meant not only for show, but were manufactured under decent fighting standards. Male sword dancing is a sacral experience in all cultures, and creating an intentionally non-battle-ready swords for such an activity would be utterly illogical. Especially in a close, "dark age", society like 19-cen. Oman.
BTW, my quilloned Kattara has no markings. Plain, sturdy, locally-made, unsophisticated killer. Love it!

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by ariel

I have an analogous question: what about the kattaras that do not bend 90 degrees and are not vibrating? The majority I have seen are just like that, mine included, and it is not new, with pretty sturdy and crude blade and a "genoese" gurda marking. Does it make sense that there would be 2 different "models", one for dancing and another for fighting?

I see not so much problem with "straying into logic", but rather straying out of it. Even European court swords were meant not only for show, but were manufactured under decent fighting standards. Male sword dancing is a sacral experience in all cultures, and creating an intentionally non-battle-ready swords for such an activity would be utterly illogical. Especially in a close, "dark age", society like 19-cen. Oman.
BTW, my quilloned Kattara has no markings. Plain, sturdy, locally-made, unsophisticated killer. Love it!

Salaams ariel ~ Last point first ... You are right about the old omani battle sword ... its a Quilloned killer ! ... They call all straight swords here Sayf... Thus the important detail of passing that name and the shield on in what looks like the mid 19thC. Interesting that you call it "locally made" however as that isnt quite proven yet and its nickname is Sayf Yamaani it could be a Hadramaut job though I suspect Nizwa . The Omani Dancing flexible long sword defies logic... I agree. I am about to wax lyrical upon the subject on Kattara for comments... please join the discussion there if you can.

First paragraph which I missed initially... Again I think you refer to Sayfs; straight blades and in this case apparently mounted on Omani long hilts. In the Omani jargon; If they dont bend through 90 degrees from the tip they aren't Omani dancing swords. They may have been rehilted in Muscat after 1970 and sold to a visitor... or are Red Sea blades of some sort. There are stiff Saudia, Yemeni and Ethiopian blades(European in the case of the latter) that fit the description and as an interesting thought some resemble Schiavona blades. I see a lot in Muscat souk and often they have fake running woolf marks etc.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.