Kattara for comments

[A.alnakkas]

""Salaams A.alnakkas. Please try to understand that hypothesis and research are two different things. Whilst you may possibly think a sword should obey this or that rule and without full research you can simply conclude; may not be a valuable lesson since you may perhaps be relying on gut feeling and not upon the facts. On research we appreciate but we don't situate. ""

Wa Alaikum elsalam.

I am open to your idea. Its just that you havent yet provided good evidence for it. Your assumptions for why the straight saif is dance only has been answered, and I will counter your replies.

""Whilst there may be a few odd weapons (normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you ) that do not employ quillons the Omani dancing sword, though it looks like a long sparring sword doesn't have them because it's not a fighting weapon. (see current thread)""

Are you saying that the Shashka, the afghan shashka, the barong, the sinai shashka, the dhas, the khyber knives AND the yataghans are "extremely short blades vertually knife length"?

Have you even handled one?

Again, there are plenty of swords with no quillons and those swords are battle tested. Your assumption IS WRONG.

""There arent any Omani Sayfs with points or stiff blades. There are some hybrids but they are mainly tourist swords done in Muscat since 1970. Omani dancing swords "SAYF" do not have this configuration. Omani people dont go for the hybrid varieties because you cant dance with a dead blade. Its that simple.""

Not really. This is rather assumptive. Why are you suggesting that solid(er) blades are touristy made in the 70's? Whats the evidence? Majority of Kattaras with solid blades tend to have fine mounts and silver wire stitched hilts, this is against the tourist trade which generally goes for the least costy products. I'd say an Omani trader would have a better chance selling a flexible, made yesterday for Razha type of swords to tourists since its less costy.

""This is not initially understood but I assume you mean Sayf not Kattara since as you will recall~ Sayf are the straight whilst Kattara are the curved ~ so that my answer must be Yes, all Omani Sayfs are flexible bladed and round tipped. They are all dancing swords. They are not weapons and never were""

Yep, I mean the straight saif, but out of habit I just call it kattara. I actually agree with your research regarding terminology and totally appreciate it. When you said so, I researched alittle bit online and found out that websites with random information about the Shihies (or their websites) would call the curved one Kattarah (كتارة) and straight ones; saif. So I am with you on this one.

But not with you on the purpose of the straight saif.

""Where you are perhaps getting confused is upon the appearance of Hybridised weapons that have been switched and available in Muscat since about 1970 and have fooled tourists and the unsuspecting passer by for nearly half a century.""

Not really.

""The Bedawi weapon is an excellent subject in which to invest time and effort in meaningful and respectable research. I can certainly assist in this, however, since you are much closer to the source in such blades perhaps you would like to lead with an opening new thread on the subject. There are Bedouin in Oman namely Rashidi, Bayt Kathiir, Wahayybi and Harsiisi(Jarsiis) and maybe one or two others...and it would be an interesting subject. ""

Again, the badawi offers a similar view to the straight saif. But true, defintely deserves more research ;-)

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

""Salaams A.alnakkas. Please try to understand that hypothesis and research are two different things. Whilst you may possibly think a sword should obey this or that rule and without full research you can simply conclude; may not be a valuable lesson since you may perhaps be relying on gut feeling and not upon the facts. On research we appreciate but we don't situate. ""

Wa Alaikum elsalam.

I am open to your idea. Its just that you havent yet provided good evidence for it. Your assumptions for why the straight saif is dance only has been answered, and I will counter your replies.

""Whilst there may be a few odd weapons (normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you ) that do not employ quillons the Omani dancing sword, though it looks like a long sparring sword doesn't have them because it's not a fighting weapon. (see current thread)""

Are you saying that the Shashka, the afghan shashka, the barong, the sinai shashka, the dhas, the khyber knives AND the yataghans are "extremely short blades vertually knife length"?

Have you even handled one?

Again, there are plenty of swords with no quillons and those swords are battle tested. Your assumption IS WRONG.

""There arent any Omani Sayfs with points or stiff blades. There are some hybrids but they are mainly tourist swords done in Muscat since 1970. Omani dancing swords "SAYF" do not have this configuration. Omani people dont go for the hybrid varieties because you cant dance with a dead blade. Its that simple.""

Not really. This is rather assumptive. Why are you suggesting that solid(er) blades are touristy made in the 70's? Whats the evidence? Majority of Kattaras with solid blades tend to have fine mounts and silver wire stitched hilts, this is against the tourist trade which generally goes for the least costy products. I'd say an Omani trader would have a better chance selling a flexible, made yesterday for Razha type of swords to tourists since its less costy.

""This is not initially understood but I assume you mean Sayf not Kattara since as you will recall~ Sayf are the straight whilst Kattara are the curved ~ so that my answer must be Yes, all Omani Sayfs are flexible bladed and round tipped. They are all dancing swords. They are not weapons and never were""

Yep, I mean the straight saif, but out of habit I just call it kattara. I actually agree with your research regarding terminology and totally appreciate it. When you said so, I researched alittle bit online and found out that websites with random information about the Shihies (or their websites) would call the curved one Kattarah (كتارة) and straight ones; saif. So I am with you on this one.

But not with you on the purpose of the straight saif.

""Where you are perhaps getting confused is upon the appearance of Hybridised weapons that have been switched and available in Muscat since about 1970 and have fooled tourists and the unsuspecting passer by for nearly half a century.""

Not really.

""The Bedawi weapon is an excellent subject in which to invest time and effort in meaningful and respectable research. I can certainly assist in this, however, since you are much closer to the source in such blades perhaps you would like to lead with an opening new thread on the subject. There are Bedouin in Oman namely Rashidi, Bayt Kathiir, Wahayybi and Harsiisi(Jarsiis) and maybe one or two others...and it would be an interesting subject. ""

Again, the badawi offers a similar view to the straight saif. But true, defintely deserves more research ;-)

Salaams A.alnakkas ~ I think you need to read the available data at this thread and others to finally be convinced as I and the rest of the population in Oman are, (including the Museums and the National Herritage Association) viz;..

1. That the Omani dancing sword; (The very flexible long hilted, spatula tipped, straight Sayf of circa 1744 introduction) is in fact not a weapon and never was. It is for pageant and dancing only.

2. That interloper swords infiltrated by traders into Oman since 1970 have been rehilted in Muscat and sold on the tourist market particularly straight Yemeni and Saudia blades of the sort we are discussing.

3. That these swords are not bought by Omani people as dancing swords but by visitors who think they are a dancing sword when in fact they are not. They dont buzz. They are heavier and have a point. They were originally weapons. An Omani person would much rather buy a broomstick than one of these !!

4. That the Omani Straight is a Sayf and the curved is a Kattara (though I note that despite the 250 plus posts on this Forum you needed to go online to discover this on the Shehe website, though, I have to say well done on confirming that ! so why dont you kindly post that website on this thread as confirmation?)

Actually I was just thinking that this time last year I was in Kabul where I must have handled about 1,000 different weapons of the type Kard, Pulwar and others where I noted the lethality of the blades on swords mainly designed to go straight into the attack as opposed to parry. The majority were short by comparison more like a butchers knife. Naturally there are weapons that are designed to slash and chop but I'm afraid the Omani long dancer is not one of these.

There is even a strange sword that wraps around the body which is totally flexible and used like a whip(I owned one). Whilst that too is a weapon employing flexibility; the Omani dancing Sword is NOT. It is for dancing and pageants only.

HAVE i HANDLED WEAPONS ? I trained with a master of weapons of the Chinese tAI cHI (fighting style) school and in spear particularly. I trained in the Japanese style and used a live Omani Kattara blade to compare (not reccommended) I am a black belt first dan in knockdown Kyokushinkai and trained with one of Oss!! "Sossai Maso Yama" Oss!! "young lions" the well respected master from Beirut, Sensei Rashiid Sabbagh... for 10 years. I am trained on every modern bayonett and firearm invented~I am a marksman class shot(Rifle) since the late 20th C. Weapons were my profession for decades ! I own 50 swords and have owned hundreds more. Therefor since you call into question have I handled them?...the answer is Yes.

The subject of the Bedawi weapon is intriguing and I wonder where it started life and how it transmitted ~ Its not an Omani weapon though may be evidenced in these fringe Bedu groups perhaps from Murra to Rashid and on to Bait Kathiir and Harsis.. I urge you to throw your energy into that and as a specialist in Omani artefacts, arms and armour and as a camel owner (See Wilfred Thesiger as it was my team that did the Liwa re-enactment)) Im also a horse owner(Arabian and part Arabian) and junior Falcon associate. I have to go now as my Salukki arab hunting dog is at the vets !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""Salaams A.alnakkas ~ I think you need to read the available data at this thread and others to finally be convinced as I and the rest of the population in Oman are, (including the Museums and the National Herritage Association) viz;..""

Wa Alaikum elSalam,

Ibrahim, I very much value the info which you have brought. But the "information" which you have brought to support that the straight saif is dance only are basically nothing but your own assumptions.

""1. That the Omani dancing sword; (The very flexible long hilted, spatula tipped, straight Sayf of circa 1744 introduction) is in fact not a weapon and never was. It is for pageant and dancing only.""

I can claim that a duck is not a duck and insist upon it, but that does not make me right :-)

"" 2. That interloper swords infiltrated by traders into Oman since 1970 have been rehilted in Muscat and sold on the tourist market particularly straight Yemeni and Saudia blades of the sort we are discussing.""

Evidence states otherwise as there are straight saifs with solid to flexible (sharp and battle ready non the less) with older mounts.

""3. That these swords are not bought by Omani people as dancing swords but by visitors who think they are a dancing sword when in fact they are not. They dont buzz. They are heavier and have a point. They were originally weapons. An Omani person would much rather buy a broomstick than one of these !!""

This all could be right but again, Omanis now caring more for dancing blades do not say much about the time when the sword they danced with, was also the one they'd take for battle.

""4. That the Omani Straight is a Sayf and the curved is a Kattara (though I note that despite the 250 plus posts on this Forum you needed to go online to discover this on the Shehe website, though, I have to say well done on confirming that ! so why dont you kindly post that website on this thread as confirmation?)""

Are you against confirmation?

http://www.hdrmut.net/vb/t365731.html (pict of the full sword seems to be removed)

http://wadilaqat.forumarabia.com/t1022-topic

They dont say much but you can look for clues into how they refer to items. This is pretty much all I did and I used it as a supporting argument to your argument. This would be nice for you if you can read arabic.

""Actually I was just thinking that this time last year I was in Kabul where I must have handled about 1,000 different weapons of the type Kard, Pulwar and others where I noted the lethality of the blades on swords mainly designed to go straight into the attack as opposed to parry. The majority were short by comparison more like a butchers knife. Naturally there are weapons that are designed to slash and chop but I'm afraid the Omani long dancer is not one of these. ""

Are you refering to Khyber knives? sure, there are short variants, but they are basically short swords and are used as swords.

""There is even a strange sword that wraps around the body which is totally flexible and used like a whip(I owned one). Whilst that too is a weapon employing flexibility; the Omani dancing Sword is NOT. It is for dancing and pageants only.""

Flexibility wouldnt really matter much if you are not going to parry with the sword. Imo, considering that most arabs rarely use any form of heavy armor, a saif with a sharp blade and some durability would be lethal even if its flexible or not.


""HAVE i HANDLED WEAPONS ? I trained with a master of weapons of the Chinese tAI cHI (fighting style) school and in spear particularly. I trained in the Japanese style and used a live Omani Kattara blade to compare (not reccommended) I am a black belt first dan in knockdown Kyokushinkai and trained with one of Oss!! "Sossai Maso Yama" Oss!! "young lions" the well respected master from Beirut, Sensei Rashiid Sabbagh... for 10 years. I am trained on every modern bayonett and firearm invented~I am a marksman class shot(Rifle) since the late 20th C. Weapons were my profession for decades ! I own 50 swords and have owned hundreds more. Therefor since you call into question have I handled them?...the answer is Yes.""

This is a strawman of my question. I asked about specific weapons (swords) which YOU have refered to as knives : "normally extremely short blades virtually knife length mentioned by you" This is false information as a dha, a yataghan, shashkas, barongs and khyber knives are swords and certainly not the length of a knife (can argue that barongs and khybers are short but hey, not as short as a knife.)

Am sure you have more achievements done in your life but please do answer the questions instead of strawmans as they waste your and my time.

But to get more into the point, here are links to swords that are battle tested without guards and quillons:

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=67

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3345

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3225

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=4565

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=568

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=518

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3736

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=3378

Using your logic, these are not combat weapons

""The subject of the Bedawi weapon is intriguing and I wonder where it started life and how it transmitted ~ Its not an Omani weapon though may be evidenced in these fringe Bedu groups perhaps from Murra to Rashid and on to Bait Kathiir and Harsis.. I urge you to throw your energy into that and as a specialist in Omani artefacts, arms and armour and as a camel owner (See Wilfred Thesiger as it was my team that did the Liwa re-enactment)) Im also a horse owner(Arabian and part Arabian) and junior Falcon associate. I have to go now as my Salukki arab hunting dog is at the vets !""

Similar evolution. Again, these 2 sword types I never claimed to be one or anything, but they basically went into the same thing where a real thing turns into more of a dancing sword. :-)

[Iain]

I have zero interest in getting into the "dance sword" debate, I've expressed my opinions throughout this thread I think pretty clearly.

But I did want to add this example to the thread for posterity, as it's now no longer for sale (note: I am not the buyer)

http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-...-kattara-sword

It's an old saif with a European blade, note the ricasso.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

I have zero interest in getting into the "dance sword" debate, I've expressed my opinions throughout this thread I think pretty clearly.

But I did want to add this example to the thread for posterity, as it's now no longer for sale (note: I am not the buyer)

http://www.ashokaarts.com/shop/rare-...-kattara-sword

It's an old saif with a European blade, note the ricasso.

Salaams Iain, It amazes me that the ashok website continues to ignore the raft of information provided on this forum about the Old Omani Battle Sword. The shape of the pommel is related to ancient archways in the Abbasid dynasty and Islamic helmets also reflect this design down the ages. The pointed pommel often has the same number of geometric sides as the hilt... either 6, 8 or even one in my collection has 9.

However, I describe the pictured item as an "Old Omani Battle Sword" hilt fitted with a European (probably German blade) between the 17th and 19th Century. The fitting is crudely fastened with two rivvets at the cuff through the blade and I assume the tang is modified etc. Odd blade marks of a possible European nature and the tell tale non sharp parts of the blade in front of the cuff at the throat (ricasso) typical of many European blades so that the "half sword" tactic could be employed and for speed and control. ~Perhaps this blade was one destined originally for Ethiopia and later hybridised. Nevertheless it is an interesting switch over but is not original (nor, to be fair, does it state that) though it is as an example of a rehilted European blade (German Solingen?) on an Omani Old Battle Sword Hilt...It is, I suggest, a viable weapon on an Old Omani hilt and not done for the tourist market unlike changes carried out on later swords.

Thank you for the clear reference and pictures.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain, It amazes me that the ashok website continues to ignore the raft of information provided on this forum about the Old Omani Battle Sword. The shape of the pommel is related to ancient archways in the Abbasid dynasty and Islamic helmets also reflect this design down the ages. The pointed pommel often has the same number of geometric sides as the hilt... either 6, 8 or even one in my collection has 9.

However, I describe the pictured item as an "Old Omani Battle Sword" hilt fitted with a European (probably German blade) between the 17th and 19th Century. The fitting is crudely fastened with two rivvets at the cuff through the blade and I assume the tang is modified etc. Odd blade marks of a possible European nature and the tell tale non sharp parts of the blade in front of the cuff at the throat (ricasso) typical of many European blades so that the "half sword" tactic could be employed and for speed and control. ~Perhaps this blade was one destined originally for Ethiopia and later hybridised. Nevertheless it is an interesting switch over but is not original (nor, to be fair, does it state that) though it is as an example of a rehilted European blade (German Solingen?) on an Omani Old Battle Sword Hilt...It is, I suggest, a viable weapon on an Old Omani hilt and not done for the tourist market unlike changes carried out on later swords.

Thank you for the clear reference and pictures.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Hi Ibrahiim,

I don't think you can count on all dealers reading the threads here.

To be completely honest I think you are playing with semantics at this point by wanting to focus on the hilt and not the sword overall. Agreed the hilt was quite probably not made for this particular blade.

I know you have your definitions for what constitutes an Omani sword or not but this is where those definitions are problematic in my opinion. This is a sword, for Omanis put together by an Omani and if the blade is European that doesn't change what this is in the least to me. It's an Omani saif.

By the logic you are using quite a number of my takouba are simply takouba hilts on European blades. Same goes for kaskara and many other ethnic weapons from Africa and Asia.

I've spent enough time in this thread pointing out European bladed examples and I know your arguments for how to classify them, so I don't think either of us needs to spend time retyping it all.

I find this example very interesting and I would assume there are more of them out there. It would be interesting to find a hilt made for one of these blades, it would not surprise me to find one as obviously there was no problem locally to accept such blades.

Frankly I think this also throws into question the idea that the European blades turning up in modern mounts are exclusively from outside Omani use and simply remounted for tourists. Judging by this there was no issue to use European blades even in the Old Style hilts.

Cheers,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

I don't think you can count on all dealers reading the threads here.

To be completely honest I think you are playing with semantics at this point by wanting to focus on the hilt and not the sword overall. Agreed the hilt was quite probably not made for this particular blade.

I know you have your definitions for what constitutes an Omani sword or not but this is where those definitions are problematic in my opinion. This is a sword, for Omanis put together by an Omani and if the blade is European that doesn't change what this is in the least to me. It's an Omani saif.

By the logic you are using quite a number of my takouba are simply takouba hilts on European blades. Same goes for kaskara and many other ethnic weapons from Africa and Asia.

I've spent enough time in this thread pointing out European bladed examples and I know your arguments for how to classify them, so I don't think either of us needs to spend time retyping it all.

I find this example very interesting and I would assume there are more of them out there. It would be interesting to find a hilt made for one of these blades, it would not surprise me to find one as obviously there was no problem locally to accept such blades.

Frankly I think this also throws into question the idea that the European blades turning up in modern mounts are exclusively from outside Omani use and simply remounted for tourists. Judging by this there was no issue to use European blades even in the Old Style hilts.

Cheers,

Iain

Salaams Iain, Apologies as I missed this post ... I have no problem with this sword as a weapon at all... though I have no actual proof that it was done for Omanis by Omanis but it may have been. Equally it could have been done elsewhere..For sure its a german blade and I have one similar but with the more typical mediaeval styling and fullering. I know one ancient blade that has been coupled onto an Omani hilt on this thread at # 228 and #229 and I know who did the work and why. Whilst there are perhaps original conversions out there (based on the spoils of war winner takes all ) there are also commercial reasons for knocking out complete switch rounds as they occur. Muscat has been doing this "prolific and sustained" for almost 5 decades. I would be remiss for not pointing this out. That is why I say this is an Omani Old Battle Sword Hilt with an Ethiopian blade of German origin.

Your last paragraph assumes a lot more than I am prepared to' since you may have confused the matching of outside blades onto Omani long hilts which as you know I have placed in different category to weapons being either dancing swords in terms of the straight flexible sayf and more or less Iconic dress swords in the case of the curved and various Kattara though some I agree (those with quillons) can be weapons... We know the discussion etc etc The point being that I am certain that the Red Sea stiff blades are not dancing swords not favoured by Omanis and therefor tourist swords... Ironically they were probably weapons before being re-matched re-hilted.

An interesting question arrises over origin of the Red Sea stiff blades as undoubtably many are German (Solingen) however some look like Italian Schiovana. Loads of blades and swords have arrived over the years from the Yemen and have been rehilted in Muscat...I have two ethiopian blades German origin hilted on Indian Tulvar hilts (In Muscat) I know for sure that Omani men discard immediately a stiff blade as unworkable since they dont buzz..for dancing. I witness this daily in my own store as do my friends that own stores in Muttrah though in reverse since they sell lots of them... to tourists. One of our best friends in Muttrah and his father before him stretching back to 1970 have sold hundreds of these mixed "cousins"... They ought to know since it was (and is) their workshop that fitted them up with Omani hilts. Consequently in interior Oman and souks other than Muttrah(and possibly Nizwa thesedays) these Red Sea Cousins mis-matched onto Omani hilts do not appear ! They are totally tourist swords. This is not to say that this in any way influences or changes how swords in other countries are viewed by their own people... Its only the Omani viewpoint I express... and supported by the National Archives and 3 million Omani people

It further occured to me that people have missed a couple of important details in that the original Omani Battle Sword in that its origin as a design I have shown is 751 ad (The first Immam Ibn Julanda etc etc ) but that it continued to be used but more importantly repaired, broken and renewed down the ages somewhere...and its name Sayf Yamaani could give a clue ( I discovered a place near Nizwa called Yemen.. Maybe thats the spot... or Yemen Hadramaut... we dont know.. This is the only true Omani Battle Sword that I can identify. The Sayf Yamaani. It still gets the Icon treatment even today... We have one in our own workshops being done right now... for me !

The second point is that swords were not the main battlefield weapon ..The Spear .. Unfortunately it has dropped off the radar but only since I have been unable to get to that subject and the information has been scarce because it is almost forgotten... Its fall from grace courtesy of gunpowder and failure to be continued as Iconic ( rather impractical !) have allowed it to sink into obscurity. Therein lies the main battlefield weapon of Oman before gunpowder eventually ousted it..


Regarding hilts .. As its a straight blade there are no problems with hilts ... Most of the 20 or so swords I have had through my hands didnt have them or the hilts were recent (50 to 100 years) I have one complete in the TRM in Kuwait through our store we used to have in al ain.
Thank you for your post.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams ~ I believe you may have misconstrued the research which is detailed and correct based upon Omani and UAE National Archive and Museum information, coupled with on site comprehensive research by myself and my team. The facts are neatly laid out and findings are there to see viz;

1. The Omani flexible long hilted dancing sword is a dancing sword only and always has been.

2. Hybridised straight swords typically Red Sea variants with points and stiff blades placed on Omani long hilts and Omani scabbards are not favoured by Omanis for dancing (or anything else) and are classed as Tourist Swords being mainly conversions done in Muscat Souk and sold there since 1970.(according to the Muscat souk and workshops owners)

3. Hybridised curved blades of European or other manufacture placed on Omani long hilts are badge of office not battle swords though in their previous configuration they were probably weapons.

4. Non hybridised Omani swords that include Zanzibari Nimcha and what we sometimes in Forum terms describe as Shamshir; That is those curved Persian, Safavid blades on typical cross hilts, designed originally by a Syrian master working for the Persian Royal Court and Hyderabadi similar styles (probably favoured and accepted into Omani style because of the large Hyderabadi influence in Muscat..traders and merchants. Whilst these are clearly weapons they were worn like other badge of office swords as Icons or Court Swords. Not fighting swords.

5. Karabela shaped hilts with Nimcha blades with and without quillons appear but are mainly Yemeni... with European blades etc. The hawkshead hilt has transmitted onto shorter blades for use on board ship as a slashing sword; some short others medium and could squeeze in on the cutlass design of ships styles..The shorter style used as a long utility knife.

6. Generally where a sword has no quillons and except in the case of the short weapons at 5 above, in other words where it has a long Omani Hilt it is not a combat weapon as such but a badge of office or court sword. That is not to say that it could not inflict serious damage but that it is not a fighting sword. The same can be said of the other court swords which do have quillons ... They are dress swords.

7. I have so far not identified any Bedawi weapons in Oman but the research is open ended and continues.

8. The Old Omani Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani; Is The only true fighting sword of Oman; comprising a straight short blade, double edged, pointed, quillons, spiked pommel. The fighting sword of Oman originally arrived in 751 AD and as a Battle Sword with a Terrs Shield used until the late 19thC. therafter, also worn as an Icon usually on a Royal Hilt. Sometime probably in about 1750 or about the time of the Busaidi dynasty commencing the new dancing sword was invented taking over all duties in the Funoon range of pageant retaining the term Sayf and enhanced for mimic fighting purposes the Terrs shield.

9. Try as I may I find no relevance in your addition of a series of curved generally short weapons which in their current form are other countries swords not Omani. If they are placed to state that curved quillonless swords are weapons; that may well be the case elsewhere but on the Oman scene this is certainly not the case.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""Salaams ~ I believe you may have misconstrued the research which is detailed and correct based upon Omani and UAE National Archive and Museum information, coupled with on site comprehensive research by myself and my team. The facts are neatly laid out and findings are there to see viz;""

I see nothing in your research that academically support the notion that Straight saif is dance only. If so, then correct me with a link or 2, there is no shame in that!

""1. The Omani flexible long hilted dancing sword is a dancing sword only and always has been.""

I dont agree. I dont see anything that supports this. Infact, even one of our senior members (Jim Macdougall) disagrees with this.

""2. Hybridised straight swords typically Red Sea variants with points and stiff blades placed on Omani long hilts and Omani scabbards are not favoured by Omanis for dancing (or anything else) and are classed as Tourist Swords being mainly conversions done in Muscat Souk and sold there since 1970.(according to the Muscat souk and workshops owners)""

an unproved claim. Nothing more nothing less. You are ignoring alot of evidence countering this.

""3. Hybridised curved blades of European or other manufacture placed on Omani long hilts are badge of office not battle swords though in their previous configuration they were probably weapons.""

Thanks for countering your own argument. Why would a dancing sword form (hilt) be used for a badge of office? it makes no sense when that can be used with a more formidable battle form. Like it always has been everywhere (shamshirs, kilijs, saifs etc maintaining their original war form even though they are just dress swords)

""6. Generally where a sword has no quillons and except in the case of the short weapons at 5 above, in other words where it has a long Omani Hilt it is not a combat weapon as such but a badge of office or court sword. That is not to say that it could not inflict serious damage but that it is not a fighting sword. The same can be said of the other court swords which do have quillons ... They are dress swords.""

So are you saying that khyber knives, yataghans, dhas, shashkas etc are just dress swords now?:P There is no evidence supporting that but hey, lets ignore the battles that jannisaries, cossaks and pashtu's fought in maybe they were all using Omani battle swords

""7. I have so far not identified any Bedawi weapons in Oman but the research is open ended and continues.""

You are strawmanning my use of the badawi analogy. But here you go:

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1007

""8. The Old Omani Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani; Is The only true fighting sword of Oman; comprising a straight short blade, double edged, pointed, quillons, spiked pommel. The fighting sword of Oman originally arrived in 751 AD and as a Battle Sword with a Terrs Shield used until the late 19thC. therafter, also worn as an Icon usually on a Royal Hilt. Sometime probably in about 1750 or about the time of the Busaidi dynasty commencing the new dancing sword was invented taking over all duties in the Funoon range of pageant retaining the term Sayf and enhanced for mimic fighting purposes the Terrs shield.""

Sure, the Omani battle sword is pretty much what it is, a battle sword. But there are many weapons which do not have quillons, double edges, spiked pommels etc but are used in battle. I see no point in repeating this over and over again but your argument ignores ALOT of evidence.

""9. Try as I may I find no relevance in your addition of a series of curved generally short weapons which in their current form are other countries swords not Omani. If they are placed to state that curved quillonless swords are weapons; that may well be the case elsewhere but on the Oman scene this is certainly not the case.""

The shashka, the dha, the bedouin shashka, the central asia shashka are not short weapons. The yataghan and khyber knife sometimes are short. These are a proof that quillons are not 100% important for a sword to be a battle one and them being non-Omani is irrelevant.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

""Salaams ~ I believe you may have misconstrued the research which is detailed and correct based upon Omani and UAE National Archive and Museum information, coupled with on site comprehensive research by myself and my team. The facts are neatly laid out and findings are there to see viz;""

I see nothing in your research that academically support the notion that Straight saif is dance only. If so, then correct me with a link or 2, there is no shame in that!

""1. The Omani flexible long hilted dancing sword is a dancing sword only and always has been.""

I dont agree. I dont see anything that supports this. Infact, even one of our senior members (Jim Macdougall) disagrees with this.



""2. Hybridised straight swords typically Red Sea variants with points and stiff blades placed on Omani long hilts and Omani scabbards are not favoured by Omanis for dancing (or anything else) and are classed as Tourist Swords being mainly conversions done in Muscat Souk and sold there since 1970.(according to the Muscat souk and workshops owners)""

an unproved claim. Nothing more nothing less. You are ignoring alot of evidence countering this.

""3. Hybridised curved blades of European or other manufacture placed on Omani long hilts are badge of office not battle swords though in their previous configuration they were probably weapons.""

Thanks for countering your own argument. Why would a dancing sword form (hilt) be used for a badge of office? it makes no sense when that can be used with a more formidable battle form. Like it always has been everywhere (shamshirs, kilijs, saifs etc maintaining their original war form even though they are just dress swords)

""6. Generally where a sword has no quillons and except in the case of the short weapons at 5 above, in other words where it has a long Omani Hilt it is not a combat weapon as such but a badge of office or court sword. That is not to say that it could not inflict serious damage but that it is not a fighting sword. The same can be said of the other court swords which do have quillons ... They are dress swords.""

So are you saying that khyber knives, yataghans, dhas, shashkas etc are just dress swords now?:P There is no evidence supporting that but hey, lets ignore the battles that jannisaries, cossaks and pashtu's fought in maybe they were all using Omani battle swords

""7. I have so far not identified any Bedawi weapons in Oman but the research is open ended and continues.""

You are strawmanning my use of the badawi analogy. But here you go:

http://oriental-arms.com/item.php?id=1007

""8. The Old Omani Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani; Is The only true fighting sword of Oman; comprising a straight short blade, double edged, pointed, quillons, spiked pommel. The fighting sword of Oman originally arrived in 751 AD and as a Battle Sword with a Terrs Shield used until the late 19thC. therafter, also worn as an Icon usually on a Royal Hilt. Sometime probably in about 1750 or about the time of the Busaidi dynasty commencing the new dancing sword was invented taking over all duties in the Funoon range of pageant retaining the term Sayf and enhanced for mimic fighting purposes the Terrs shield.""

Sure, the Omani battle sword is pretty much what it is, a battle sword. But there are many weapons which do not have quillons, double edges, spiked pommels etc but are used in battle. I see no point in repeating this over and over again but your argument ignores ALOT of evidence.

""9. Try as I may I find no relevance in your addition of a series of curved generally short weapons which in their current form are other countries swords not Omani. If they are placed to state that curved quillonless swords are weapons; that may well be the case elsewhere but on the Oman scene this is certainly not the case.""

The shashka, the dha, the bedouin shashka, the central asia shashka are not short weapons. The yataghan and khyber knife sometimes are short. These are a proof that quillons are not 100% important for a sword to be a battle one and them being non-Omani is irrelevant.

Salaams ~ The documentary evidence contained in the National Herritage Document, The Craft Herritage of Oman at page 220, 222, 454 and 455 and in the National Museum of Muscat and in the National Museum at Al Ain in the UAE. Supporting detailed and qualifying evidence is contained at this thread in most of the 250 posts.

To be fair I know that this takes some believing not least by people who may think they have a genuine fighting Omani sword when in fact they have not.. As explained the dancing sword is not a fighting sword.

To be even fairer many people in history (visitors in the 19th C noted at thread) have been duped by the appearance of the broadsword like aspect, seemingly, a two handed battlesword and used by very agressive tribesmen in the mimic fight style but they were mistaken since it is only a pageantry sword.

Whilst this is not even made absolutely clear in the herritage book on Omani swords which tries to explain the nature of the wavy straight variant(another dancing type of Sayf essentially the same as the straight dancing sword but with a wavy blade) as having been bathed in blood, the authors use the clever wording It is said that meaning it is probably rumour only. Certainly the authors had not the time to spend months on retrieving the truth which is that these are not battle swords. The flexible Omani Straight Sayf (or the similar wavy variant) is a dancing sword only.

All the other details are as I have indicated and are included in the reference as proven. Where I have indicated they are capable of being weapons that is the case... Where they are badge of office that is fact. When I indicate tourist weapon or sword... that is what they are; confirmed by the workshop owner (and shop owners) in Muscat Souk that has converted them since about 1970. Where I speak about the Old Omani Battle Sword that can be seen at thread and in Omani UAE and Kuwait museums(they have one of ours). The only true Omani Battle Sword (also Iconic). The Sayf Yamaani.

I know that the long handled Omani curved Kattara looks formidable ~ It really does look like it could cause a lot of damage and it probably could but it is not a weapon ... It is a sword of Badge of Office..Only. That is its purpose in life. A dress sword. Bye the way I have also seen it waggled in the air at pageants but that is not its purpose. Badge of Office.

You confuse long hilt quillonless curved Omani Swords with other countries combat weapons. You may not believe this but This is simply not the case in Oman. Museum reference refers.

The Old Omani Sayf Yamaani Battlesword is a different case study and whilst it is the only really true Omani Battlesword it too was Iconised in the al Busaidi Dynasty being rehilted on the Royal hilt.. Thread refers.

With respect; the introduction by you of our Moderator Jim McDougalls name is a very unsatisfactory development, since, on this forum people do not "tend" to make up their minds during a thread process, moreover, they are free to comment, guide and steer and in the final analysis, may sway one way or the other... or remain unbiased.

As always, however, I am open to constructive criticism.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

""Salaams ~ The documentary evidence contained in the National Herritage Document, The Craft Herritage of Oman at page 220, 222, 454 and 455 and in the National Museum of Muscat and in the National Museum at Al Ain in the UAE. Supporting detailed and qualifying evidence is contained at this thread in most of the 250 posts.""

I may have missed it, but dont remember anything about straight saifs being dance only from a museum? as far as I remember, you came up with this idea when you saw an ethiopian blade being "rehilted"

""You confuse long hilt quillonless curved Omani Swords with other countries combat weapons. You may not believe this but This is simply not the case in Oman. Museum reference refers.""

Your point about the quillons has nothing to do with countries. You deemed the saif not a combat weapon due to "being quillonless" and not due to being Omani. This is, as proven by alot of evidence to be nothing but hot air at best.

""With respect; the introduction by you of our Moderator Jim McDougalls name is a very unsatisfactory development, since, on this forum people do not "tend" to make up their minds during a thread process, moreover, they are free to comment, guide and steer and in the final analysis, may sway one way or the other... or remain unbiased.""

So citing that one of our most experienced members is in an agreement with me is a bad thing now?

Here is a quote from JM:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I also wanted to add some of my own perceptions thus far concerning the overall kattara discussions and for purpose of this thread, the sword in discussion.
I think this is a reasonably recently mounted, as noted, blade which to me resembles those which were prevalent in the trade into Red Sea and North Africa. It is of a 19thc. form usually associated with Solingen and found on many kaskara, and these seem to have been produced as 'blanks' for the purpose of export to these regions. In North Africa many were embellished with native versions of markings which had become prevalent, often from interpretations of earlier European markings. It would seem in this case, since the blade ended up in Omani context, the markings added would be of course with key forms important there.

I am not certain that I am as concerned with much of the terminology issues as clearly in most ethnographic weapons, these can be debated ad infinitum due to many variations, semantics, transliterations etc. Many of these weapons have come to be known by generally held collectors terms and colloquially described names, which in my opinion are probably easier to adhere to in discussions. Despite this case, it is of course best in my opinion to qualify descriptions, for example with the Moroccan 'nimcha' I usually call it the Moroccan sa'if commonly termed 'nimcha'. The 'hawkshead' denominator for these Arabian swords with karabela style hilts brought to our attention by Ibrahiim is intriguing and I had not been aware of that term. Here again, the 'karabela' is a hilt style associated with Turkey and East Europe, but has often been applied to certain sabres overall. Here the term 'hawkshead' becomes specific for an Arabian sabre with karabela style hilt.

As far as 'dancing' swords, I do believe that swords used are of the 'types' used in the context of general use whether combat or ceremonial, and am somewhat unconvinced that these would be made exclusively for these events. The 'Highland sword dance' is of course one example which typically uses the traditional basket hilt sword, many of which while having become ceremonially worn are actually quite capable of combat use. I have seen videos shared by a Beja tribesman of 'dances' using kaskara in Eritrea where these swords were fully combat ready. The 'duels' in Khevsuria use straight bladed 'pranguli' and are staged combat portrayal, yet the same swords can and have been used in actual duels with the expected result.

In my opinion, the cylindrical hilt of the Omani 'kattara' or straight bladed sa'if is fully capable of combat use, as well as for dancing events. In the sword we see here, the hilt is wrapped in leather, an often seen application in combat swords used through Arabia and by Bedouin into Sinai regions as well as certainly many other regional possibilities. It is important to note that flexibility is important in combat blades in order to properly absorb impact and transference of energy is an important dynamic. If too rigid the blade will break, and there are many deadly blades which can flex up to 90 degrees (the 'urumi' of North Malabar in Kerala, India is one extreme example). In blades of the crusades one key factor noted, and I have handled one of these, is the thinness and flexibility of the blade. With regard to the spatulated or rounded tips, this feature is commonly seen on straight swords which are used primarily in slashing cuts and is well known on many European sword blades. These rounded tips are also of course key to the Saharan takouba broadswords, where slashing cuts are preferred.

Regarding the spike on the hilts of some of these Omani sa'if, it is my opinion, as discussed over a year ago, that this conical pommel may allude to architectural renderings such as the top of the minaret. It is well established that many features incorporated into various hilts reflect important architectural elements especially of Mosques and temples, and the tulwar hilt actually is believed to reflect the stupa. I do not believe that the 'spike' shape would be effective in combat, and these features have often had these suggestions, for example the spiked Prussian 'pickelhaube' helmets of WWI, which has never been proven used as such. It is known however that 'pommeling' or striking with the sword pommel does occur, but not enought for this feature to be spiked for such purpose.

While those observations admittedly deviate in degree, I return to noting that Brian's kattara is certainly a solid example of a Red Sea blade probably from Germany and marked with talismanically oriented images. With this I would say it was likely intended for tribal wear, and would have served in combat if required, however as in most cases, these were worn as elements of tribal costume and not necessarily battle weapons, nor specifically for the ceremonial events.

I do understand that the sound making and vibration of the blade was key in the alyaalha, and that there may well have been blades made in Oman to accentuate that feature. In this case, swords with these blades may well have existed contemporarily to these straight kattara, but I am not certain that they can necessarily be classed separately.

It can be found here: http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15113 (Post 21)

Regardless, I rest my case, because you, my good friend Ibrahim so far have been repeating your assumptions without any effort in deconstructing my replies. You also have engaged in fallacies and misrepresenting reality when you refered to Swords as knives to support your case.

Keep in mind that I have absolutely nothing to lose or gain with Straight saifs being whatever they are but the evidence to support your conclusion was less then weak, it was ridiculous

[Iain]

I assume this was not directed at myself but rather at A.alnakkas...?

Cheers,

Iain

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams ~ I believe you may have misconstrued the research which is detailed and correct based upon Omani and UAE National Archive and Museum information, coupled with on site comprehensive research by myself and my team. The facts are neatly laid out and findings are there to see viz;

1. The Omani flexible long hilted dancing sword is a dancing sword only and always has been.

2. Hybridised straight swords typically Red Sea variants with points and stiff blades placed on Omani long hilts and Omani scabbards are not favoured by Omanis for dancing (or anything else) and are classed as Tourist Swords being mainly conversions done in Muscat Souk and sold there since 1970.(according to the Muscat souk and workshops owners)

3. Hybridised curved blades of European or other manufacture placed on Omani long hilts are badge of office not battle swords though in their previous configuration they were probably weapons.

4. Non hybridised Omani swords that include Zanzibari Nimcha and what we sometimes in Forum terms describe as Shamshir; That is those curved Persian, Safavid blades on typical cross hilts, designed originally by a Syrian master working for the Persian Royal Court and Hyderabadi similar styles (probably favoured and accepted into Omani style because of the large Hyderabadi influence in Muscat..traders and merchants. Whilst these are clearly weapons they were worn like other badge of office swords as Icons or Court Swords. Not fighting swords.

5. Karabela shaped hilts with Nimcha blades with and without quillons appear but are mainly Yemeni... with European blades etc. The hawkshead hilt has transmitted onto shorter blades for use on board ship as a slashing sword; some short others medium and could squeeze in on the cutlass design of ships styles..The shorter style used as a long utility knife.

6. Generally where a sword has no quillons and except in the case of the short weapons at 5 above, in other words where it has a long Omani Hilt it is not a combat weapon as such but a badge of office or court sword. That is not to say that it could not inflict serious damage but that it is not a fighting sword. The same can be said of the other court swords which do have quillons ... They are dress swords.

7. I have so far not identified any Bedawi weapons in Oman but the research is open ended and continues.

8. The Old Omani Battle Sword or Sayf Yamaani; Is The only true fighting sword of Oman; comprising a straight short blade, double edged, pointed, quillons, spiked pommel. The fighting sword of Oman originally arrived in 751 AD and as a Battle Sword with a Terrs Shield used until the late 19thC. therafter, also worn as an Icon usually on a Royal Hilt. Sometime probably in about 1750 or about the time of the Busaidi dynasty commencing the new dancing sword was invented taking over all duties in the Funoon range of pageant retaining the term Sayf and enhanced for mimic fighting purposes the Terrs shield.

9. Try as I may I find no relevance in your addition of a series of curved generally short weapons which in their current form are other countries swords not Omani. If they are placed to state that curved quillonless swords are weapons; that may well be the case elsewhere but on the Oman scene this is certainly not the case.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.