Omani Sayf; markings for ID

[kahnjar1]

The purpose of this thread by ILLIAD was, if I am not mistaken, posted to extract comment about his Sayf, and to try and identify the marks on the blade. I am sure that if he wanted to find out about "dancing swords" he would have read the ongoing post "Kattara For Comment".
I am sure that ILLIAD and others, myself included, would like to find out more regarding the marks on his sword blade.
I find it a great pity, and very frustrating, that this practice of what I choose to call "Thread Hijacking" is becoming a regular occurance.
If I wish to use the SEARCH facility to gleen information on a particular topic, I find it most annoying that the subject changes on to something entirely different.

Regards

[David]

Please relax and breathe gentlemen.
While thread "hijacking" can be considered a problem, thread topics are likely to wander some, especially if the original info sought is simply unavailable. Anyone at anytime is welcome to bring this thread back to topic if the information about the markings on this blade is available to them. If so, please share. There is, however, no hard rule about staying strictly on topic in a thread, though one would expect the tangent information to still connect to the original post in some manner.
As for the discussion at hand, i would suggest that one refrain from argumentative comments such as "You are completely WRONG" and the like. These kinds of comments are always counter-productive to constructive discussion. Now play nice...

[A.alnakkas]

To Illiad,

I think you have a proper sword in your hand. The blade is old and the fittings are not made yesterday. Keep in mind that most swords get rehilted all the time.

[Jim McDougall]

This thread has been highly informative, and actually is well placed as I earlier noted as it is moving in concert with the extremely productive 'kattara' thread which is running concurrently. I would like to note that as David has said, threads to tend to wander, especially in the case of those where actual discussion is taking place. It is important to remember that in the study of these weapons, the scope of investigation can often expand over a wide range of subjects. The original question concerned the markings on what we know is an Omani sa'if, commonly termed 'kattara' and what they meant.

The inclusion of the now well dimensioned investigation on these swords, as well as thier use and history is distinctly pertinant in looking into these markings, the subject of which is my own favored field of study. While I had included my own observations on the markings, it is important to consider that the intended use of the sword, and the possibility of it being one of the examples used in pageantry vs. actual combat is indeed important. The idea of this is obviously, certain markings or character in motif or features do often offer certain demeanor to the sword itself.

The term demeanor brings to mind another topic, which here clearly deviates from my comments thus far toward the sword itself and its discussion, but goes to the character of my post here. This concerns the use of certain wording in discussions, specifically assertions of whether an opposing view is 'right' or 'wrong'. Obviously in discussions, there may be a number of views concerning the subject at hand, and the idea of these views being presented is so all concerned may evaluate and process all the information. In many cases, supporting evidence may be compelling enough to change the views of others, possibly all. This is considered constructive analysis, and to the benefit of all involved.

It is best to observe anothers view if contrary to that held personally, by wording such as 'I understand this differently', rather than use of terms which are perceived negatively such as 'wrong'. I am not saying it is 'wrong' to word this way, just that I see it differently

I dont necessarily agree with all of the views presented here, but I will say I have learned a lot, and wanted to thank everyone who has participated in these threads for outstanding discourse thus far. Lets keep the discussions going, and if things get perceivably 'off course' I think those participating are quite capable of bringing the original topic back into focus without direct challenge.

Thanks very much guys,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

I also wanted to add some of my own perceptions thus far concerning the overall kattara discussions and for purpose of this thread, the sword in discussion.
I think this is a reasonably recently mounted, as noted, blade which to me resembles those which were prevalent in the trade into Red Sea and North Africa. It is of a 19thc. form usually associated with Solingen and found on many kaskara, and these seem to have been produced as 'blanks' for the purpose of export to these regions. In North Africa many were embellished with native versions of markings which had become prevalent, often from interpretations of earlier European markings. It would seem in this case, since the blade ended up in Omani context, the markings added would be of course with key forms important there.

I am not certain that I am as concerned with much of the terminology issues as clearly in most ethnographic weapons, these can be debated ad infinitum due to many variations, semantics, transliterations etc. Many of these weapons have come to be known by generally held collectors terms and colloquially described names, which in my opinion are probably easier to adhere to in discussions. Despite this case, it is of course best in my opinion to qualify descriptions, for example with the Moroccan 'nimcha' I usually call it the Moroccan sa'if commonly termed 'nimcha'. The 'hawkshead' denominator for these Arabian swords with karabela style hilts brought to our attention by Ibrahiim is intriguing and I had not been aware of that term. Here again, the 'karabela' is a hilt style associated with Turkey and East Europe, but has often been applied to certain sabres overall. Here the term 'hawkshead' becomes specific for an Arabian sabre with karabela style hilt.

As far as 'dancing' swords, I do believe that swords used are of the 'types' used in the context of general use whether combat or ceremonial, and am somewhat unconvinced that these would be made exclusively for these events. The 'Highland sword dance' is of course one example which typically uses the traditional basket hilt sword, many of which while having become ceremonially worn are actually quite capable of combat use. I have seen videos shared by a Beja tribesman of 'dances' using kaskara in Eritrea where these swords were fully combat ready. The 'duels' in Khevsuria use straight bladed 'pranguli' and are staged combat portrayal, yet the same swords can and have been used in actual duels with the expected result.

In my opinion, the cylindrical hilt of the Omani 'kattara' or straight bladed sa'if is fully capable of combat use, as well as for dancing events. In the sword we see here, the hilt is wrapped in leather, an often seen application in combat swords used through Arabia and by Bedouin into Sinai regions as well as certainly many other regional possibilities. It is important to note that flexibility is important in combat blades in order to properly absorb impact and transference of energy is an important dynamic. If too rigid the blade will break, and there are many deadly blades which can flex up to 90 degrees (the 'urumi' of North Malabar in Kerala, India is one extreme example). In blades of the crusades one key factor noted, and I have handled one of these, is the thinness and flexibility of the blade. With regard to the spatulated or rounded tips, this feature is commonly seen on straight swords which are used primarily in slashing cuts and is well known on many European sword blades. These rounded tips are also of course key to the Saharan takouba broadswords, where slashing cuts are preferred.

Regarding the spike on the hilts of some of these Omani sa'if, it is my opinion, as discussed over a year ago, that this conical pommel may allude to architectural renderings such as the top of the minaret. It is well established that many features incorporated into various hilts reflect important architectural elements especially of Mosques and temples, and the tulwar hilt actually is believed to reflect the stupa. I do not believe that the 'spike' shape would be effective in combat, and these features have often had these suggestions, for example the spiked Prussian 'pickelhaube' helmets of WWI, which has never been proven used as such. It is known however that 'pommeling' or striking with the sword pommel does occur, but not enought for this feature to be spiked for such purpose.

While those observations admittedly deviate in degree, I return to noting that Brian's kattara is certainly a solid example of a Red Sea blade probably from Germany and marked with talismanically oriented images. With this I would say it was likely intended for tribal wear, and would have served in combat if required, however as in most cases, these were worn as elements of tribal costume and not necessarily battle weapons, nor specifically for the ceremonial events.

I do understand that the sound making and vibration of the blade was key in the alyaalha, and that there may well have been blades made in Oman to accentuate that feature. In this case, swords with these blades may well have existed contemporarily to these straight kattara, but I am not certain that they can necessarily be classed separately.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

I also wanted to add some of my own perceptions thus far concerning the overall kattara discussions and for purpose of this thread, the sword in discussion.
I think this is a reasonably recently mounted, as noted, blade which to me resembles those which were prevalent in the trade into Red Sea and North Africa. It is of a 19thc. form usually associated with Solingen and found on many kaskara, and these seem to have been produced as 'blanks' for the purpose of export to these regions. In North Africa many were embellished with native versions of markings which had become prevalent, often from interpretations of earlier European markings. It would seem in this case, since the blade ended up in Omani context, the markings added would be of course with key forms important there.

I am not certain that I am as concerned with much of the terminology issues as clearly in most ethnographic weapons, these can be debated ad infinitum due to many variations, semantics, transliterations etc. Many of these weapons have come to be known by generally held collectors terms and colloquially described names, which in my opinion are probably easier to adhere to in discussions. Despite this case, it is of course best in my opinion to qualify descriptions, for example with the Moroccan 'nimcha' I usually call it the Moroccan sa'if commonly termed 'nimcha'. The 'hawkshead' denominator for these Arabian swords with karabela style hilts brought to our attention by Ibrahiim is intriguing and I had not been aware of that term. Here again, the 'karabela' is a hilt style associated with Turkey and East Europe, but has often been applied to certain sabres overall. Here the term 'hawkshead'**(see notes) becomes specific for an Arabian sabre with karabela style hilt.

As far as 'dancing' swords, I do believe that swords used are of the 'types' used in the context of general use whether combat or ceremonial, and am somewhat unconvinced that these would be made exclusively for these events. The 'Highland sword dance' is of course one example which typically uses the traditional basket hilt sword, many of which while having become ceremonially worn are actually quite capable of combat use. I have seen videos shared by a Beja tribesman of 'dances' using kaskara in Eritrea where these swords were fully combat ready. The 'duels' in Khevsuria use straight bladed 'pranguli' and are staged combat portrayal, yet the same swords can and have been used in actual duels with the expected result.

In my opinion, the cylindrical hilt of the Omani 'kattara' or straight bladed sa'if is fully capable of combat use, as well as for dancing events. In the sword we see here, the hilt is wrapped in leather, an often seen application in combat swords used through Arabia and by Bedouin into Sinai regions as well as certainly many other regional possibilities. It is important to note that flexibility is important in combat blades in order to properly absorb impact and transference of energy is an important dynamic. If too rigid the blade will break, and there are many deadly blades which can flex up to 90 degrees (the 'urumi' of North Malabar in Kerala, India is one extreme example). In blades of the crusades one key factor noted, and I have handled one of these, is the thinness and flexibility of the blade. With regard to the spatulated or rounded tips, this feature is commonly seen on straight swords which are used primarily in slashing cuts and is well known on many European sword blades. These rounded tips are also of course key to the Saharan takouba broadswords, where slashing cuts are preferred.

Regarding the spike on the hilts of some of these Omani sa'if, it is my opinion, as discussed over a year ago, that this conical pommel may allude to architectural renderings such as the top of the minaret. It is well established that many features incorporated into various hilts reflect important architectural elements especially of Mosques and temples, and the tulwar hilt actually is believed to reflect the stupa. I do not believe that the 'spike' shape would be effective in combat, and these features have often had these suggestions, for example the spiked Prussian 'pickelhaube' helmets of WWI, which has never been proven used as such. It is known however that 'pommeling' or striking with the sword pommel does occur, but not enought for this feature to be spiked for such purpose.

While those observations admittedly deviate in degree, I return to noting that Brian's kattara is certainly a solid example of a Red Sea blade probably from Germany and marked with talismanically oriented images. With this I would say it was likely intended for tribal wear, and would have served in combat if required, however as in most cases, these were worn as elements of tribal costume and not necessarily battle weapons, nor specifically for the ceremonial events.

I do understand that the sound making and vibration of the blade was key in the alyaalha, and that there may well have been blades made in Oman to accentuate that feature. In this case, swords with these blades may well have existed contemporarily to these straight kattara, but I am not certain that they can necessarily be classed separately.

Salaams Jim, Thank you for your excellent summary, professionally researched and written as always ~(as I hope are my posts) ~ with high Forum standards of historical correctness and detail and as a beacon for others to steer by. I shall try to choose better descriptive words in future in conveying the meaning of a reply which is 180 degrees in the opposite direction since perhaps I may not have quite put my case in as crystal clear terms as I had thought. Naturally the somewhat misleading reference by others to people kidnapping the thread is as pointed out by previous moderator staff not the case. We place comments on Forum for Forum research purposes and serious discussion only and in doing so hope to shine a light on vague topics and perhaps attract (as a biproduct) some of the onlookers by our professionalism.

Your post is, indeed, inspiring.

References. I refer to the main reference which is this Forums Kattara for comments In addition I must refer to two other references which are the National Museum of Oman and the publication The Craft Herritage of Oman which is a national herritage documentation project. Both references confirm the pageantry only aspect of the Straight Sayf flexible dancing sword and that it was not used for fighting despite its apparent warlike mimic role in the Funoon. Clearer than that I cannot be. At this time therefor the defence rests..However I further add ~

It may be born in mind that I have been amongst the dancers asking the important question... Is this a fighting sword...? Did anyone you know ever fight with this sword in the past, in history, in your family before or in any battle that you know of modern or ancient? Answers varied between outright hilarity and puzzled looks and "Are you mad"? "Dont be stupid" to the more sensible retort ... "No its only for dancing."

The dancing Sayf indeed looks vicious and the dance routines look warlike. The sword looks like it could chop an arm off as stated by historical notes by witnesses at Katara for comments # 164. However they were duped by appearances.. wrongfooted by its seemingly warlike surroundings and tricked, perhaps, like many today into thinking that this was a weapon. That is not to say that it is incapable of causing damage (so is a table leg but its not a club weapon per se)

It may well look like, and be related in design to, an African weapon and may have tantalizing similarities to even a European ancient sword and appear to have a round tip reminicent of such potential cousins. It could have copied to some extent the Saudi Yemeni longhilted broadsword that came to the Red Sea area via the Ottoman and before that Mamluke Abbasid and Greek... It probably did. It is, however, only related as a weapon to the Red Sea in that the entire thing as a weapon is, in fact, A Red Herring ! This is a dancing pageantry sword only.

The Omani Sayf flexible dancing sword which may have arrived on or about the Busaidi Dynasty start date in 1744 is not a fighting weapon but a pageantry accoutrement though it may have inspired the hilt and scabbard to be placed onto curved Kattara blades thus they (The curved Kattara)became Icons along with other variant or Hybrid styles ( Nimcha, Shashqa, Shamshir etc). Some of these became working ships weapons often in the Hawkshead design * (see notes)

The true fighting Omani Blade remained the Old Omani Battle Sword or "Sayf Yamani" though by then (late 18th C/ mid 19thC aprox) swords were on their way out as gunpowder was preferred and in Oman the battles were mainly between ships with great use of Cannon. (and Forts) Great store was invested in Iconic swords and eventually the same happened to the old Omani Battle Sword as it too succumbed to badge of Office status. It does not appear that the straight dancing sayf became Iconised though today it is often used as a gift item to visitors. Zanzibari and Muscat Sultans can be seen on the Kattara for comments thread in full regalia with various swords .

Two full generations**(see notes) of Muscat Souk workshops "prolific" matching of various swords from Yemen and Saudia have occured and at any one time 300 such weapons can be found in a souk area of a few hundred square metres. Refitting a hilt takes a few minutes to a trained craftsman and swords refitted there go straight onto the vibrant tourist market. Included is tang extension and pommel re hilting with the omani long hilt and scabbard making. Blades that I have witnessed as rematched include Solingen, Saudia, Yemeni and Ethiopian blades. On one occasion two Indian Tulvar hilts placed on Ethiopian blades looking to the inexperienced eye as very mediaeval indeed. Thus the tourist swords were launched.

Only by writing down the facts in comprehensive documentary order and where possible with detailed proof can the full discussion be examined at times on the hot anvil of forum posts. Vital documentary proof often sits un noticed on Forum Library yet this is routinely ignored and by people who for whatever reason simply wish to make a splash. Irrational outbursts, nonsensical throw away one liners and unsubstantiated, empty rhetoric are of course, not of this house.

Many thanks Jim for your excellent posts, constructive comments and support.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Note1; Hawkshead* is a term "solely applied by me" to describe that Hilt Shape which appears to have Ottoman and etc etc ancestry also called Karabella etc.

Note 2. Something that people may not realise that when I say two generations of souk operations in the text** I mean back to 1970 essentially when Oman began to be openened to the outside world. Therefor from 1970 not before... this predicament did not occur before then. Hybridising weapons in Muscat did not happen before that date !

3. Some hypothesis is applied by me in terms of the spike on the pommel of the old Omani Battle Sword. The Sayf Yamaani. This is a double edged pointed weapon with quillons. It has all the characteristics already outlined and being a short blade I assume the close in work included the possibility of a facial attack using the spiked pommel. The opposing weapon was Abbasid and did not have a spike. Perhaps this is only a pommel with the honorific Islamic Arch design and that the pommel spike was not used as a close in concept weapon... Having done several years of sword, spear and martial arts perhaps my assessment is incorrect however that was the reason I made the assumption; The Pommel Spike eye strike...