Omani Sayf; markings for ID

[A.alnakkas]

Salam Ibrahim,

I may not have explained my point properly. I used th Badawi style saif to suggest a similar situation where a sword has turned into a more peaceful item for dancing etc, This is very similar to the Straight Omani saif which is now currently used for dancing. All am saying is that if its currently ONLY used for dancing it doesnt mean that in the past it wasnt really a weapon.

I think your reasoning to suggest this sword as dance only is the following (?): (I'll quote you and put my counter arguments under each quote)

"1. The blade is flat thin and flexible to about 90 degrees from the point. (Useless in a swordfight proper)"

This is an invalid assumption as there are Omani saifs with battle worthy blades. Even if there isnt, the blades being thin(?) and flat (and flexible) does not dismiss them as battle blades as blocking can simply be done with the shield only. I am no Razha expert but I mostly see them blocking with shields only? could be wrong the blocking part :-)

"2. The tip is spatulate designed deliberately to "not stab" since its role is to score a point against its mimic opponent in the pageant fake fight display by touching his thumb with the tip. In fact as an added in built safety measure since the blades are so long opponents rarely get within 6 feet of each other ! The sharp edges thus never come into play."

Possible, but it also works perfectly for slashing.

"3. There are no quillons. Going in to bat with a real opponent without quillons is a tad risky. However since this is not a battle sword it needs none. The Old Omani Battle Sword has them."

This does not dismiss a sword's worth in battle. Keep in mind, that the pre-dominant style of weapon in Oman were without a crossguard or quillons. Examples such as the Shashka, the bedouin shashka like saber and the Dha offer enough evidence that Crossguards arent 100% necessary.

"4. The pommel is flat ended and often with a hole apparently for a wrist strap. The Old Omani Battle Sword has a pommel terminating in a point for close in strike to the face target in battle. In the hundreds of dancing swords I have handled I have never encountered a wrist strap… because it isn’t a battle sword so it needs none… The hole is for show. Many don’t have this hole."

Dont have any comment here, but this is very subjective.

"5. In viewing the Funoon in the Razha and alyaalah acts of pageantry and mimic fighting it is obvious that this is only a socio/religio/politico/traditional artifact and accoutrement for dancing. Used in the tradition it also herralds in the Eid festivals and is paraded at National day celbrations and at weddings etc.Nothing else."

The question is, why the tradition was kept but kept as also containing the dueling part? Most sword dances and traditions go straight back to their original purpose, which was combat.

Imho, There is more evidence connecting the Omani straight saif to combat then to only dance. It makes ZERO sense that a sword is invented for the purpose of dancing and mimic fights when most evidence point to the opposite, IE sword dances effected by combat preparation and combat weapons shape.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

I may not have explained my point properly. I used th Badawi style saif to suggest a similar situation where a sword has turned into a more peaceful item for dancing etc, This is very similar to the Straight Omani saif which is now currently used for dancing. All am saying is that if its currently ONLY used for dancing it doesnt mean that in the past it wasnt really a weapon.

I think your reasoning to suggest this sword as dance only is the following (?): (I'll quote you and put my counter arguments under each quote)

"1. The blade is flat thin and flexible to about 90 degrees from the point. (Useless in a swordfight proper)"

This is an invalid assumption as there are Omani saifs with battle worthy blades. Even if there isnt, the blades being thin(?) and flat (and flexible) does not dismiss them as battle blades as blocking can simply be done with the shield only. I am no Razha expert but I mostly see them blocking with shields only? could be wrong the blocking part :-)

"2. The tip is spatulate designed deliberately to "not stab" since its role is to score a point against its mimic opponent in the pageant fake fight display by touching his thumb with the tip. In fact as an added in built safety measure since the blades are so long opponents rarely get within 6 feet of each other ! The sharp edges thus never come into play."

Possible, but it also works perfectly for slashing.

"3. There are no quillons. Going in to bat with a real opponent without quillons is a tad risky. However since this is not a battle sword it needs none. The Old Omani Battle Sword has them."

This does not dismiss a sword's worth in battle. Keep in mind, that the pre-dominant style of weapon in Oman were without a crossguard or quillons. Examples such as the Shashka, the bedouin shashka like saber and the Dha offer enough evidence that Crossguards arent 100% necessary.

"4. The pommel is flat ended and often with a hole apparently for a wrist strap. The Old Omani Battle Sword has a pommel terminating in a point for close in strike to the face target in battle. In the hundreds of dancing swords I have handled I have never encountered a wrist strap… because it isn’t a battle sword so it needs none… The hole is for show. Many don’t have this hole."

Dont have any comment here, but this is very subjective.

"5. In viewing the Funoon in the Razha and alyaalah acts of pageantry and mimic fighting it is obvious that this is only a socio/religio/politico/traditional artifact and accoutrement for dancing. Used in the tradition it also herralds in the Eid festivals and is paraded at National day celbrations and at weddings etc.Nothing else."

The question is, why the tradition was kept but kept as also containing the dueling part? Most sword dances and traditions go straight back to their original purpose, which was combat.

Imho, There is more evidence connecting the Omani straight saif to combat then to only dance. It makes ZERO sense that a sword is invented for the purpose of dancing and mimic fights when most evidence point to the opposite, IE sword dances effected by combat preparation and combat weapons shape.

Salaams A.alnakkas~ You are completely wrong.

The Omani dancing sword was never used nor was it intended for use as a fighting weapon. The sword dance is purely honorific and as part of the Funoon reflecting a tradition. Going in to bat against a swordsman with a proper sword would leave someone without fingers and probably minus a hand in about 2 seconds flat ! Piano lessons would be cancelled !

The Omani Sayf dancing sword was designed for the traditions.. The Razha ... nothing else. The shield blocking is part of a show. Exponents can attack the shield but can only score the winning point by touching the opponents thumb with the spatulate tip...

The flexibility is for show only~ so that the blade can be buzzed in the air in the procession part of the Razha. People would laugh at you if you went into a sword fight with a 90 degree bending tip !!

No quillons, no spike on the pommel, and a blade that bends virtually in half does not equal a fighting sword..Your suggestion of the spiked pommel being "subjective" is puzzling. ( On this point we are refering to the Old Omani Battle Sword comparing its spiked pommel with the Dancing Sayf which has no spike). The spike being for close quarter battle. Why else would a sword have a spiked pommel? More importantly why has the dancing sword not got one? Hardly subjective; I suggest.

There are no straight Omani dancing Sayf swords with which to fight...NONE! What does exist in the form of previous fighting blades are a variety of red sea (and associated European ) rehilted steels on Omani hilts and Scabbards... These are mainly tourist weapons. Some have become Icons.

What does happen more as an ad hoc nature of celebratory dance is that whatever weapon is to hand gets used to waive and dance with and that can and does include rifles, swords(of all natures), daggers and if none are available even camel sticks...and indeed there are speciality dances just for camel sticks... and in Southern Oman; a non-contact dance just for Khanjars. Common sense prevails as to if a sword is or is not viable as a weapon.

In the UAE if a Terrs shield cannot be found with which to do the Mimic Fight (alyaalah!) they simply use a sandal instead of the shield...Mimic Fighting is purely symbolic though carries the added excitement of having a scoring system of the "one point winner" by touching the oponents thumb with the spatulate tip.

What is far more relevant is that the term Sayf was passed on from the Old Omani Battle Sword ~ The SAYF YAMAANI ~ along with the TERRS SHIELD to be honoured in the Funoon by this dancing tool, a simbolic accoutrement...not a weapon system as such but given the name Omani Sayf wa Terrs.

In the case of Shamshir, Nimcha, Shashqa, Zanzibari, Hyderabadi and other Iconic Omani Swords (many quite similar to Bedawi in structure) these can indeed be classed as weapons, however, they are Icons; marks of "Badge of Office" not for going off to battle, though, no doubt they could cause serious harm in a fight... In the case of ships swords(shasqa and nimcha etc) remounted on hawkshead hilts I have pointed out that they were viable on board style cutlass equivalents. All this is is indicated on in this thread and Kattara for comments should you wish to research.

Your Bedawi reference is, as you indicate, ill placed, however, I would suggest that this is an interesting weapon requiring serious research and fine detail...


The Omani dancing Sword is not, nor was it ever, a weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

The purpose of this thread by ILLIAD was, if I am not mistaken, posted to extract comment about his Sayf, and to try and identify the marks on the blade. I am sure that if he wanted to find out about "dancing swords" he would have read the ongoing post "Kattara For Comment".
I am sure that ILLIAD and others, myself included, would like to find out more regarding the marks on his sword blade.
I find it a great pity, and very frustrating, that this practice of what I choose to call "Thread Hijacking" is becoming a regular occurance.
If I wish to use the SEARCH facility to gleen information on a particular topic, I find it most annoying that the subject changes on to something entirely different.

Regards

[David]

Please relax and breathe gentlemen.
While thread "hijacking" can be considered a problem, thread topics are likely to wander some, especially if the original info sought is simply unavailable. Anyone at anytime is welcome to bring this thread back to topic if the information about the markings on this blade is available to them. If so, please share. There is, however, no hard rule about staying strictly on topic in a thread, though one would expect the tangent information to still connect to the original post in some manner.
As for the discussion at hand, i would suggest that one refrain from argumentative comments such as "You are completely WRONG" and the like. These kinds of comments are always counter-productive to constructive discussion. Now play nice...

[A.alnakkas]

To Illiad,

I think you have a proper sword in your hand. The blade is old and the fittings are not made yesterday. Keep in mind that most swords get rehilted all the time.

[Jim McDougall]

This thread has been highly informative, and actually is well placed as I earlier noted as it is moving in concert with the extremely productive 'kattara' thread which is running concurrently. I would like to note that as David has said, threads to tend to wander, especially in the case of those where actual discussion is taking place. It is important to remember that in the study of these weapons, the scope of investigation can often expand over a wide range of subjects. The original question concerned the markings on what we know is an Omani sa'if, commonly termed 'kattara' and what they meant.

The inclusion of the now well dimensioned investigation on these swords, as well as thier use and history is distinctly pertinant in looking into these markings, the subject of which is my own favored field of study. While I had included my own observations on the markings, it is important to consider that the intended use of the sword, and the possibility of it being one of the examples used in pageantry vs. actual combat is indeed important. The idea of this is obviously, certain markings or character in motif or features do often offer certain demeanor to the sword itself.

The term demeanor brings to mind another topic, which here clearly deviates from my comments thus far toward the sword itself and its discussion, but goes to the character of my post here. This concerns the use of certain wording in discussions, specifically assertions of whether an opposing view is 'right' or 'wrong'. Obviously in discussions, there may be a number of views concerning the subject at hand, and the idea of these views being presented is so all concerned may evaluate and process all the information. In many cases, supporting evidence may be compelling enough to change the views of others, possibly all. This is considered constructive analysis, and to the benefit of all involved.

It is best to observe anothers view if contrary to that held personally, by wording such as 'I understand this differently', rather than use of terms which are perceived negatively such as 'wrong'. I am not saying it is 'wrong' to word this way, just that I see it differently

I dont necessarily agree with all of the views presented here, but I will say I have learned a lot, and wanted to thank everyone who has participated in these threads for outstanding discourse thus far. Lets keep the discussions going, and if things get perceivably 'off course' I think those participating are quite capable of bringing the original topic back into focus without direct challenge.

Thanks very much guys,
Jim

[Jim McDougall]

I also wanted to add some of my own perceptions thus far concerning the overall kattara discussions and for purpose of this thread, the sword in discussion.
I think this is a reasonably recently mounted, as noted, blade which to me resembles those which were prevalent in the trade into Red Sea and North Africa. It is of a 19thc. form usually associated with Solingen and found on many kaskara, and these seem to have been produced as 'blanks' for the purpose of export to these regions. In North Africa many were embellished with native versions of markings which had become prevalent, often from interpretations of earlier European markings. It would seem in this case, since the blade ended up in Omani context, the markings added would be of course with key forms important there.

I am not certain that I am as concerned with much of the terminology issues as clearly in most ethnographic weapons, these can be debated ad infinitum due to many variations, semantics, transliterations etc. Many of these weapons have come to be known by generally held collectors terms and colloquially described names, which in my opinion are probably easier to adhere to in discussions. Despite this case, it is of course best in my opinion to qualify descriptions, for example with the Moroccan 'nimcha' I usually call it the Moroccan sa'if commonly termed 'nimcha'. The 'hawkshead' denominator for these Arabian swords with karabela style hilts brought to our attention by Ibrahiim is intriguing and I had not been aware of that term. Here again, the 'karabela' is a hilt style associated with Turkey and East Europe, but has often been applied to certain sabres overall. Here the term 'hawkshead' becomes specific for an Arabian sabre with karabela style hilt.

As far as 'dancing' swords, I do believe that swords used are of the 'types' used in the context of general use whether combat or ceremonial, and am somewhat unconvinced that these would be made exclusively for these events. The 'Highland sword dance' is of course one example which typically uses the traditional basket hilt sword, many of which while having become ceremonially worn are actually quite capable of combat use. I have seen videos shared by a Beja tribesman of 'dances' using kaskara in Eritrea where these swords were fully combat ready. The 'duels' in Khevsuria use straight bladed 'pranguli' and are staged combat portrayal, yet the same swords can and have been used in actual duels with the expected result.

In my opinion, the cylindrical hilt of the Omani 'kattara' or straight bladed sa'if is fully capable of combat use, as well as for dancing events. In the sword we see here, the hilt is wrapped in leather, an often seen application in combat swords used through Arabia and by Bedouin into Sinai regions as well as certainly many other regional possibilities. It is important to note that flexibility is important in combat blades in order to properly absorb impact and transference of energy is an important dynamic. If too rigid the blade will break, and there are many deadly blades which can flex up to 90 degrees (the 'urumi' of North Malabar in Kerala, India is one extreme example). In blades of the crusades one key factor noted, and I have handled one of these, is the thinness and flexibility of the blade. With regard to the spatulated or rounded tips, this feature is commonly seen on straight swords which are used primarily in slashing cuts and is well known on many European sword blades. These rounded tips are also of course key to the Saharan takouba broadswords, where slashing cuts are preferred.

Regarding the spike on the hilts of some of these Omani sa'if, it is my opinion, as discussed over a year ago, that this conical pommel may allude to architectural renderings such as the top of the minaret. It is well established that many features incorporated into various hilts reflect important architectural elements especially of Mosques and temples, and the tulwar hilt actually is believed to reflect the stupa. I do not believe that the 'spike' shape would be effective in combat, and these features have often had these suggestions, for example the spiked Prussian 'pickelhaube' helmets of WWI, which has never been proven used as such. It is known however that 'pommeling' or striking with the sword pommel does occur, but not enought for this feature to be spiked for such purpose.

While those observations admittedly deviate in degree, I return to noting that Brian's kattara is certainly a solid example of a Red Sea blade probably from Germany and marked with talismanically oriented images. With this I would say it was likely intended for tribal wear, and would have served in combat if required, however as in most cases, these were worn as elements of tribal costume and not necessarily battle weapons, nor specifically for the ceremonial events.

I do understand that the sound making and vibration of the blade was key in the alyaalha, and that there may well have been blades made in Oman to accentuate that feature. In this case, swords with these blades may well have existed contemporarily to these straight kattara, but I am not certain that they can necessarily be classed separately.