Omani Sayf; markings for ID

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Hello everyone, sorry to disturb but I only recently learned from Ibrahiim that straight saifs are for dance only, I remember a forum member showed here a unique Omani saif with wootz blade, I think it's OK if I provide a link here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=wootz+kattara

I just wanted to ask what was the purpose to put on a dancing sword such expencieve wootz blade, or is it the same situation as written above?

Thanks!

Salaams Devadatta ~ Yes I am aware of this quirk in the blade style of Wootz appearing on non fighting swords. (There are only a couple of these so I tend to think of them as one offs))
The Omani straight Sayf dancer;..It is purely honorific..for pageants, Eid celebtaions and weddings etc.. and as written above...As you can see sometimes the swords are gold furniture clad... some loaded with silver... others plain... all dancing swords not weapons. Representrative of the old battle sword perhaps... but not for fighting.

Some blades though they look like battle blades and you could argue that wootz blades fall into that category were hybridised ( fitted with Omani Hilts and Omani Scabbards) and sold as tourist swords...It could be argued that wootz (known as Johar) in Oman and being a well respected steel would be equally respected on any hilt...but so far as I know non vibrating blades are rejected by men who want a dancing sword. The same goes for Red Sea "cousins."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Devadatta ~ Yes I am aware of this quirk in the blade style of Wootz appearing on non fighting swords. (There are only a couple of these so I tend to think of them as one offs))
The Omani straight Sayf dancer;..It is purely honorific..for pageants, Eid celebtaions and weddings etc.. and as written above...As you can see sometimes the swords are gold furniture clad... some loaded with silver... others plain... all dancing swords not weapons. Representrative of the old battle sword perhaps... but not for fighting.

Some blades though they look like battle blades and you could argue that wootz blades fall into that category were hybridised ( fitted with Omani Hilts and Omani Scabbards) and sold as tourist swords...It could be argued that wootz (known as Johar) in Oman and being a well respected steel would be equally respected on any hilt...but so far as I know non vibrating blades are rejected by men who want a dancing sword. The same goes for Red Sea "cousins."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salam Ibrahim,

I may have missed your argument that suggest straight Omani saifs as dance only.. but I think it neglects alot of evidence.

There are plenty of kattaras with sharp battle ready blades, generally 19th century and less. True, there are blades which arent sharpened and made for dancing but I think were dealing with a situation similar to the Badawi saif.

The Badawi saifs that exist now are majority well made, with forged blades (thin and flexible) coming out of KSA for the sole purpose of the ardha dance. Just because such swords exist, doesnt mean that the badawi style was made for dance only. Keeping in mind that most arab sword dances have origin in war and are practiced during: 1- Before war. 2- After war. 3- Celebrations (Weddings mainly. Never seen a sword dance done in an Eid but I think you guys in Oman do so?) So personally, I dont think arabs whether Omani or any other had the luxury of having a dance only sword at the time when swords were still in use. I humbly think your conclusion is non-sequitor.

The spatulate tip fits perfectly with how the sword was used (which we can see a glimpse off in the dance). Its a slashing weapon, as far as I know.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

I may have missed your argument that suggest straight Omani saifs as dance only.. but I think it neglects alot of evidence.

There are plenty of kattaras with sharp battle ready blades, generally 19th century and less. True, there are blades which arent sharpened and made for dancing but I think were dealing with a situation similar to the Badawi saif.

The Badawi saifs that exist now are majority well made, with forged blades (thin and flexible) coming out of KSA for the sole purpose of the ardha dance. Just because such swords exist, doesnt mean that the badawi style was made for dance only. Keeping in mind that most arab sword dances have origin in war and are practiced during: 1- Before war. 2- After war. 3- Celebrations (Weddings mainly. Never seen a sword dance done in an Eid but I think you guys in Oman do so?) So personally, I dont think arabs whether Omani or any other had the luxury of having a dance only sword at the time when swords were still in use. I humbly think your conclusion is non-sequitor.

The spatulate tip fits perfectly with how the sword was used (which we can see a glimpse off in the dance). Its a slashing weapon, as far as I know.

Salaams A.alnakkas . Al Badawi swords. I assume you mean curved or straight with quillons and a battle blade...sharp edge and point ? I agree they are for fighting.(and for parading and dancing but this is a different weapon altogether from the Omani Sayf) I think it is a different case entirely from the dancing Omani straight Sayf which is not for fighting though it is tempting to suggest that this is a slashing weapon ... It is not. It is not a weapon. It is for dancing and mimic fights only. Your Quote I may have missed your argument that suggest straight Omani saifs as dance only.. but I think it neglects alot of evidence.Unquote.. On thread and on Kattara for comments there are something in excess of 250 posts; many explaining the theory ...which you may wish to review. I dont think I have down graded Bedawi swords to dancing only... Checking now...and I can confirm that I havent said that... maybe you misread something ??
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Salam Ibrahim,

I may not have explained my point properly. I used th Badawi style saif to suggest a similar situation where a sword has turned into a more peaceful item for dancing etc, This is very similar to the Straight Omani saif which is now currently used for dancing. All am saying is that if its currently ONLY used for dancing it doesnt mean that in the past it wasnt really a weapon.

I think your reasoning to suggest this sword as dance only is the following (?): (I'll quote you and put my counter arguments under each quote)

"1. The blade is flat thin and flexible to about 90 degrees from the point. (Useless in a swordfight proper)"

This is an invalid assumption as there are Omani saifs with battle worthy blades. Even if there isnt, the blades being thin(?) and flat (and flexible) does not dismiss them as battle blades as blocking can simply be done with the shield only. I am no Razha expert but I mostly see them blocking with shields only? could be wrong the blocking part :-)

"2. The tip is spatulate designed deliberately to "not stab" since its role is to score a point against its mimic opponent in the pageant fake fight display by touching his thumb with the tip. In fact as an added in built safety measure since the blades are so long opponents rarely get within 6 feet of each other ! The sharp edges thus never come into play."

Possible, but it also works perfectly for slashing.

"3. There are no quillons. Going in to bat with a real opponent without quillons is a tad risky. However since this is not a battle sword it needs none. The Old Omani Battle Sword has them."

This does not dismiss a sword's worth in battle. Keep in mind, that the pre-dominant style of weapon in Oman were without a crossguard or quillons. Examples such as the Shashka, the bedouin shashka like saber and the Dha offer enough evidence that Crossguards arent 100% necessary.

"4. The pommel is flat ended and often with a hole apparently for a wrist strap. The Old Omani Battle Sword has a pommel terminating in a point for close in strike to the face target in battle. In the hundreds of dancing swords I have handled I have never encountered a wrist strap… because it isn’t a battle sword so it needs none… The hole is for show. Many don’t have this hole."

Dont have any comment here, but this is very subjective.

"5. In viewing the Funoon in the Razha and alyaalah acts of pageantry and mimic fighting it is obvious that this is only a socio/religio/politico/traditional artifact and accoutrement for dancing. Used in the tradition it also herralds in the Eid festivals and is paraded at National day celbrations and at weddings etc.Nothing else."

The question is, why the tradition was kept but kept as also containing the dueling part? Most sword dances and traditions go straight back to their original purpose, which was combat.

Imho, There is more evidence connecting the Omani straight saif to combat then to only dance. It makes ZERO sense that a sword is invented for the purpose of dancing and mimic fights when most evidence point to the opposite, IE sword dances effected by combat preparation and combat weapons shape.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

I may not have explained my point properly. I used th Badawi style saif to suggest a similar situation where a sword has turned into a more peaceful item for dancing etc, This is very similar to the Straight Omani saif which is now currently used for dancing. All am saying is that if its currently ONLY used for dancing it doesnt mean that in the past it wasnt really a weapon.

I think your reasoning to suggest this sword as dance only is the following (?): (I'll quote you and put my counter arguments under each quote)

"1. The blade is flat thin and flexible to about 90 degrees from the point. (Useless in a swordfight proper)"

This is an invalid assumption as there are Omani saifs with battle worthy blades. Even if there isnt, the blades being thin(?) and flat (and flexible) does not dismiss them as battle blades as blocking can simply be done with the shield only. I am no Razha expert but I mostly see them blocking with shields only? could be wrong the blocking part :-)

"2. The tip is spatulate designed deliberately to "not stab" since its role is to score a point against its mimic opponent in the pageant fake fight display by touching his thumb with the tip. In fact as an added in built safety measure since the blades are so long opponents rarely get within 6 feet of each other ! The sharp edges thus never come into play."

Possible, but it also works perfectly for slashing.

"3. There are no quillons. Going in to bat with a real opponent without quillons is a tad risky. However since this is not a battle sword it needs none. The Old Omani Battle Sword has them."

This does not dismiss a sword's worth in battle. Keep in mind, that the pre-dominant style of weapon in Oman were without a crossguard or quillons. Examples such as the Shashka, the bedouin shashka like saber and the Dha offer enough evidence that Crossguards arent 100% necessary.

"4. The pommel is flat ended and often with a hole apparently for a wrist strap. The Old Omani Battle Sword has a pommel terminating in a point for close in strike to the face target in battle. In the hundreds of dancing swords I have handled I have never encountered a wrist strap… because it isn’t a battle sword so it needs none… The hole is for show. Many don’t have this hole."

Dont have any comment here, but this is very subjective.

"5. In viewing the Funoon in the Razha and alyaalah acts of pageantry and mimic fighting it is obvious that this is only a socio/religio/politico/traditional artifact and accoutrement for dancing. Used in the tradition it also herralds in the Eid festivals and is paraded at National day celbrations and at weddings etc.Nothing else."

The question is, why the tradition was kept but kept as also containing the dueling part? Most sword dances and traditions go straight back to their original purpose, which was combat.

Imho, There is more evidence connecting the Omani straight saif to combat then to only dance. It makes ZERO sense that a sword is invented for the purpose of dancing and mimic fights when most evidence point to the opposite, IE sword dances effected by combat preparation and combat weapons shape.

Salaams A.alnakkas~ You are completely wrong.

The Omani dancing sword was never used nor was it intended for use as a fighting weapon. The sword dance is purely honorific and as part of the Funoon reflecting a tradition. Going in to bat against a swordsman with a proper sword would leave someone without fingers and probably minus a hand in about 2 seconds flat ! Piano lessons would be cancelled !

The Omani Sayf dancing sword was designed for the traditions.. The Razha ... nothing else. The shield blocking is part of a show. Exponents can attack the shield but can only score the winning point by touching the opponents thumb with the spatulate tip...

The flexibility is for show only~ so that the blade can be buzzed in the air in the procession part of the Razha. People would laugh at you if you went into a sword fight with a 90 degree bending tip !!

No quillons, no spike on the pommel, and a blade that bends virtually in half does not equal a fighting sword..Your suggestion of the spiked pommel being "subjective" is puzzling. ( On this point we are refering to the Old Omani Battle Sword comparing its spiked pommel with the Dancing Sayf which has no spike). The spike being for close quarter battle. Why else would a sword have a spiked pommel? More importantly why has the dancing sword not got one? Hardly subjective; I suggest.

There are no straight Omani dancing Sayf swords with which to fight...NONE! What does exist in the form of previous fighting blades are a variety of red sea (and associated European ) rehilted steels on Omani hilts and Scabbards... These are mainly tourist weapons. Some have become Icons.

What does happen more as an ad hoc nature of celebratory dance is that whatever weapon is to hand gets used to waive and dance with and that can and does include rifles, swords(of all natures), daggers and if none are available even camel sticks...and indeed there are speciality dances just for camel sticks... and in Southern Oman; a non-contact dance just for Khanjars. Common sense prevails as to if a sword is or is not viable as a weapon.

In the UAE if a Terrs shield cannot be found with which to do the Mimic Fight (alyaalah!) they simply use a sandal instead of the shield...Mimic Fighting is purely symbolic though carries the added excitement of having a scoring system of the "one point winner" by touching the oponents thumb with the spatulate tip.

What is far more relevant is that the term Sayf was passed on from the Old Omani Battle Sword ~ The SAYF YAMAANI ~ along with the TERRS SHIELD to be honoured in the Funoon by this dancing tool, a simbolic accoutrement...not a weapon system as such but given the name Omani Sayf wa Terrs.

In the case of Shamshir, Nimcha, Shashqa, Zanzibari, Hyderabadi and other Iconic Omani Swords (many quite similar to Bedawi in structure) these can indeed be classed as weapons, however, they are Icons; marks of "Badge of Office" not for going off to battle, though, no doubt they could cause serious harm in a fight... In the case of ships swords(shasqa and nimcha etc) remounted on hawkshead hilts I have pointed out that they were viable on board style cutlass equivalents. All this is is indicated on in this thread and Kattara for comments should you wish to research.

Your Bedawi reference is, as you indicate, ill placed, however, I would suggest that this is an interesting weapon requiring serious research and fine detail...


The Omani dancing Sword is not, nor was it ever, a weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[kahnjar1]

The purpose of this thread by ILLIAD was, if I am not mistaken, posted to extract comment about his Sayf, and to try and identify the marks on the blade. I am sure that if he wanted to find out about "dancing swords" he would have read the ongoing post "Kattara For Comment".
I am sure that ILLIAD and others, myself included, would like to find out more regarding the marks on his sword blade.
I find it a great pity, and very frustrating, that this practice of what I choose to call "Thread Hijacking" is becoming a regular occurance.
If I wish to use the SEARCH facility to gleen information on a particular topic, I find it most annoying that the subject changes on to something entirely different.

Regards

[David]

Please relax and breathe gentlemen.
While thread "hijacking" can be considered a problem, thread topics are likely to wander some, especially if the original info sought is simply unavailable. Anyone at anytime is welcome to bring this thread back to topic if the information about the markings on this blade is available to them. If so, please share. There is, however, no hard rule about staying strictly on topic in a thread, though one would expect the tangent information to still connect to the original post in some manner.
As for the discussion at hand, i would suggest that one refrain from argumentative comments such as "You are completely WRONG" and the like. These kinds of comments are always counter-productive to constructive discussion. Now play nice...