Omani Sayf; markings for ID

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][QUOTE=

I agree with the assessment that this broadsword, rather than being the cylindrical hilted sa'if used in the ceremonial events in Oman, is one of the same form but clearly for use as a weapon. While my understanding of the dancing elements of these ceremonies is extremely limited, I do believe that the movements and dynamics of them is closely associated with those of actual use of these swords in combat. The rounded tip on the blade on this example is in line with straight blades used in slashing type attacks as far as I have understood. This characteristic is seen as well on a number of these kinds of straight cavalry blades used in Europe.

The blade here seems to correspond to a type known produced in Germany with what seems a lenticular section blade with an elliptical fuller in the upper blade section. Blades very similar in form appear to have entered the Red Sea trade sphere and entered North Africa in some volume in the mid to latter 19th century and inspired native produced blades of those times. It does seem this blade may well be one of the earlier, and often unmarked, examples of German produced blades and quite possibly mid 18th century.
This blade form is of course quite common and could be even earlier, it is really hard to say from photos. Unquote
Jim[/COLOR]

Salaams Jim ~ In reference to your reply above in blue which is part of your post at # 5 on this thread.

Firstly; I believe that this is a modified blade to hilt done deliberately to move the weapon through a shop in Muscat. It therefor accidentally becomes a tourist weapon. I say accidentally because initially it was a weapon... from a Red Sea variant (possibly a cousin) It could be either originally a European blade or derived from the Ottoman, Saudia, Yemen or Algerian as an original or copied.

Secondly; the blade is not the 90 degree bendable dancing blade and as such would never be selected for this task. Its blade just will not buzz. It would be rejected immediately by any Omani looking to obtain a Sayf... It is the first vital test... Flexibility... this one would snap ! The hilt and scabbard are clearly more recent additions. This work is typical of the Muscat alteration workshops doing such work over the last few generations and to the unsuspecting eye (tourist) this looks like a good deal. I know that having spoken to the workshops owner in Muscat that this is typical and a way of selling what he could otherwise not move... By masquerading as an Omani sword this one went south... on this occasion courtesy of a diplomat apparently.

Ironically the blade probably was a weapon in its day (unlike the dancing sword which are and never were weapons) but certainly not with that hilt (and scabbard). I agree, however, that the dance "mimic fight" routine "alyalaah" in the Razha section of The Funoon is some sort of combat warm up perhaps honorary in respect of the Old Omani Battle Sword. The original Omani Sayf.

The situation regarding the flat spatulate end on Sayf dancing swords needs some focus since the sword pictured here doesn't or rather didn't have a rounded tip (well it does now because the Muscat workshop filed it round) It was originally pointed. The reason for the rounded tip on the Omani Dancing Sword is so that some safety can be achieved whilst scoring against the oponent in the mimic contest and anyway it would be pointless on such a flexible blade ~ There is only one way to score~ by touching with the flat round spatulate tip your oponents thumb ( I believe on the shield hand) For show there is a lot of blocking and parry but its not a fight per se.
Thanks again for your input Yaa Ustad !

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Devadatta]

Hello everyone, sorry to disturb but I only recently learned from Ibrahiim that straight saifs are for dance only, I remember a forum member showed here a unique Omani saif with wootz blade, I think it's OK if I provide a link here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=wootz+kattara

I just wanted to ask what was the purpose to put on a dancing sword such expencieve wootz blade, or is it the same situation as written above?

Thanks!

[Iliad]

Gentlemen,
Thank you to you all for such interesting and informative responses to my posting. I appreciate the time taken by each one of you and I am now much better informed than I was! So much to learn!
Best regards as always
Brian

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Devadatta

Hello everyone, sorry to disturb but I only recently learned from Ibrahiim that straight saifs are for dance only, I remember a forum member showed here a unique Omani saif with wootz blade, I think it's OK if I provide a link here

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...=wootz+kattara

I just wanted to ask what was the purpose to put on a dancing sword such expencieve wootz blade, or is it the same situation as written above?

Thanks!

Salaams Devadatta ~ Yes I am aware of this quirk in the blade style of Wootz appearing on non fighting swords. (There are only a couple of these so I tend to think of them as one offs))
The Omani straight Sayf dancer;..It is purely honorific..for pageants, Eid celebtaions and weddings etc.. and as written above...As you can see sometimes the swords are gold furniture clad... some loaded with silver... others plain... all dancing swords not weapons. Representrative of the old battle sword perhaps... but not for fighting.

Some blades though they look like battle blades and you could argue that wootz blades fall into that category were hybridised ( fitted with Omani Hilts and Omani Scabbards) and sold as tourist swords...It could be argued that wootz (known as Johar) in Oman and being a well respected steel would be equally respected on any hilt...but so far as I know non vibrating blades are rejected by men who want a dancing sword. The same goes for Red Sea "cousins."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Devadatta ~ Yes I am aware of this quirk in the blade style of Wootz appearing on non fighting swords. (There are only a couple of these so I tend to think of them as one offs))
The Omani straight Sayf dancer;..It is purely honorific..for pageants, Eid celebtaions and weddings etc.. and as written above...As you can see sometimes the swords are gold furniture clad... some loaded with silver... others plain... all dancing swords not weapons. Representrative of the old battle sword perhaps... but not for fighting.

Some blades though they look like battle blades and you could argue that wootz blades fall into that category were hybridised ( fitted with Omani Hilts and Omani Scabbards) and sold as tourist swords...It could be argued that wootz (known as Johar) in Oman and being a well respected steel would be equally respected on any hilt...but so far as I know non vibrating blades are rejected by men who want a dancing sword. The same goes for Red Sea "cousins."

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Salam Ibrahim,

I may have missed your argument that suggest straight Omani saifs as dance only.. but I think it neglects alot of evidence.

There are plenty of kattaras with sharp battle ready blades, generally 19th century and less. True, there are blades which arent sharpened and made for dancing but I think were dealing with a situation similar to the Badawi saif.

The Badawi saifs that exist now are majority well made, with forged blades (thin and flexible) coming out of KSA for the sole purpose of the ardha dance. Just because such swords exist, doesnt mean that the badawi style was made for dance only. Keeping in mind that most arab sword dances have origin in war and are practiced during: 1- Before war. 2- After war. 3- Celebrations (Weddings mainly. Never seen a sword dance done in an Eid but I think you guys in Oman do so?) So personally, I dont think arabs whether Omani or any other had the luxury of having a dance only sword at the time when swords were still in use. I humbly think your conclusion is non-sequitor.

The spatulate tip fits perfectly with how the sword was used (which we can see a glimpse off in the dance). Its a slashing weapon, as far as I know.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

I may have missed your argument that suggest straight Omani saifs as dance only.. but I think it neglects alot of evidence.

There are plenty of kattaras with sharp battle ready blades, generally 19th century and less. True, there are blades which arent sharpened and made for dancing but I think were dealing with a situation similar to the Badawi saif.

The Badawi saifs that exist now are majority well made, with forged blades (thin and flexible) coming out of KSA for the sole purpose of the ardha dance. Just because such swords exist, doesnt mean that the badawi style was made for dance only. Keeping in mind that most arab sword dances have origin in war and are practiced during: 1- Before war. 2- After war. 3- Celebrations (Weddings mainly. Never seen a sword dance done in an Eid but I think you guys in Oman do so?) So personally, I dont think arabs whether Omani or any other had the luxury of having a dance only sword at the time when swords were still in use. I humbly think your conclusion is non-sequitor.

The spatulate tip fits perfectly with how the sword was used (which we can see a glimpse off in the dance). Its a slashing weapon, as far as I know.

Salaams A.alnakkas . Al Badawi swords. I assume you mean curved or straight with quillons and a battle blade...sharp edge and point ? I agree they are for fighting.(and for parading and dancing but this is a different weapon altogether from the Omani Sayf) I think it is a different case entirely from the dancing Omani straight Sayf which is not for fighting though it is tempting to suggest that this is a slashing weapon ... It is not. It is not a weapon. It is for dancing and mimic fights only. Your Quote I may have missed your argument that suggest straight Omani saifs as dance only.. but I think it neglects alot of evidence.Unquote.. On thread and on Kattara for comments there are something in excess of 250 posts; many explaining the theory ...which you may wish to review. I dont think I have down graded Bedawi swords to dancing only... Checking now...and I can confirm that I havent said that... maybe you misread something ??
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[A.alnakkas]

Salam Ibrahim,

I may not have explained my point properly. I used th Badawi style saif to suggest a similar situation where a sword has turned into a more peaceful item for dancing etc, This is very similar to the Straight Omani saif which is now currently used for dancing. All am saying is that if its currently ONLY used for dancing it doesnt mean that in the past it wasnt really a weapon.

I think your reasoning to suggest this sword as dance only is the following (?): (I'll quote you and put my counter arguments under each quote)

"1. The blade is flat thin and flexible to about 90 degrees from the point. (Useless in a swordfight proper)"

This is an invalid assumption as there are Omani saifs with battle worthy blades. Even if there isnt, the blades being thin(?) and flat (and flexible) does not dismiss them as battle blades as blocking can simply be done with the shield only. I am no Razha expert but I mostly see them blocking with shields only? could be wrong the blocking part :-)

"2. The tip is spatulate designed deliberately to "not stab" since its role is to score a point against its mimic opponent in the pageant fake fight display by touching his thumb with the tip. In fact as an added in built safety measure since the blades are so long opponents rarely get within 6 feet of each other ! The sharp edges thus never come into play."

Possible, but it also works perfectly for slashing.

"3. There are no quillons. Going in to bat with a real opponent without quillons is a tad risky. However since this is not a battle sword it needs none. The Old Omani Battle Sword has them."

This does not dismiss a sword's worth in battle. Keep in mind, that the pre-dominant style of weapon in Oman were without a crossguard or quillons. Examples such as the Shashka, the bedouin shashka like saber and the Dha offer enough evidence that Crossguards arent 100% necessary.

"4. The pommel is flat ended and often with a hole apparently for a wrist strap. The Old Omani Battle Sword has a pommel terminating in a point for close in strike to the face target in battle. In the hundreds of dancing swords I have handled I have never encountered a wrist strap… because it isn’t a battle sword so it needs none… The hole is for show. Many don’t have this hole."

Dont have any comment here, but this is very subjective.

"5. In viewing the Funoon in the Razha and alyaalah acts of pageantry and mimic fighting it is obvious that this is only a socio/religio/politico/traditional artifact and accoutrement for dancing. Used in the tradition it also herralds in the Eid festivals and is paraded at National day celbrations and at weddings etc.Nothing else."

The question is, why the tradition was kept but kept as also containing the dueling part? Most sword dances and traditions go straight back to their original purpose, which was combat.

Imho, There is more evidence connecting the Omani straight saif to combat then to only dance. It makes ZERO sense that a sword is invented for the purpose of dancing and mimic fights when most evidence point to the opposite, IE sword dances effected by combat preparation and combat weapons shape.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by A.alnakkas

Salam Ibrahim,

I may not have explained my point properly. I used th Badawi style saif to suggest a similar situation where a sword has turned into a more peaceful item for dancing etc, This is very similar to the Straight Omani saif which is now currently used for dancing. All am saying is that if its currently ONLY used for dancing it doesnt mean that in the past it wasnt really a weapon.

I think your reasoning to suggest this sword as dance only is the following (?): (I'll quote you and put my counter arguments under each quote)

"1. The blade is flat thin and flexible to about 90 degrees from the point. (Useless in a swordfight proper)"

This is an invalid assumption as there are Omani saifs with battle worthy blades. Even if there isnt, the blades being thin(?) and flat (and flexible) does not dismiss them as battle blades as blocking can simply be done with the shield only. I am no Razha expert but I mostly see them blocking with shields only? could be wrong the blocking part :-)

"2. The tip is spatulate designed deliberately to "not stab" since its role is to score a point against its mimic opponent in the pageant fake fight display by touching his thumb with the tip. In fact as an added in built safety measure since the blades are so long opponents rarely get within 6 feet of each other ! The sharp edges thus never come into play."

Possible, but it also works perfectly for slashing.

"3. There are no quillons. Going in to bat with a real opponent without quillons is a tad risky. However since this is not a battle sword it needs none. The Old Omani Battle Sword has them."

This does not dismiss a sword's worth in battle. Keep in mind, that the pre-dominant style of weapon in Oman were without a crossguard or quillons. Examples such as the Shashka, the bedouin shashka like saber and the Dha offer enough evidence that Crossguards arent 100% necessary.

"4. The pommel is flat ended and often with a hole apparently for a wrist strap. The Old Omani Battle Sword has a pommel terminating in a point for close in strike to the face target in battle. In the hundreds of dancing swords I have handled I have never encountered a wrist strap… because it isn’t a battle sword so it needs none… The hole is for show. Many don’t have this hole."

Dont have any comment here, but this is very subjective.

"5. In viewing the Funoon in the Razha and alyaalah acts of pageantry and mimic fighting it is obvious that this is only a socio/religio/politico/traditional artifact and accoutrement for dancing. Used in the tradition it also herralds in the Eid festivals and is paraded at National day celbrations and at weddings etc.Nothing else."

The question is, why the tradition was kept but kept as also containing the dueling part? Most sword dances and traditions go straight back to their original purpose, which was combat.

Imho, There is more evidence connecting the Omani straight saif to combat then to only dance. It makes ZERO sense that a sword is invented for the purpose of dancing and mimic fights when most evidence point to the opposite, IE sword dances effected by combat preparation and combat weapons shape.

Salaams A.alnakkas~ You are completely wrong.

The Omani dancing sword was never used nor was it intended for use as a fighting weapon. The sword dance is purely honorific and as part of the Funoon reflecting a tradition. Going in to bat against a swordsman with a proper sword would leave someone without fingers and probably minus a hand in about 2 seconds flat ! Piano lessons would be cancelled !

The Omani Sayf dancing sword was designed for the traditions.. The Razha ... nothing else. The shield blocking is part of a show. Exponents can attack the shield but can only score the winning point by touching the opponents thumb with the spatulate tip...

The flexibility is for show only~ so that the blade can be buzzed in the air in the procession part of the Razha. People would laugh at you if you went into a sword fight with a 90 degree bending tip !!

No quillons, no spike on the pommel, and a blade that bends virtually in half does not equal a fighting sword..Your suggestion of the spiked pommel being "subjective" is puzzling. ( On this point we are refering to the Old Omani Battle Sword comparing its spiked pommel with the Dancing Sayf which has no spike). The spike being for close quarter battle. Why else would a sword have a spiked pommel? More importantly why has the dancing sword not got one? Hardly subjective; I suggest.

There are no straight Omani dancing Sayf swords with which to fight...NONE! What does exist in the form of previous fighting blades are a variety of red sea (and associated European ) rehilted steels on Omani hilts and Scabbards... These are mainly tourist weapons. Some have become Icons.

What does happen more as an ad hoc nature of celebratory dance is that whatever weapon is to hand gets used to waive and dance with and that can and does include rifles, swords(of all natures), daggers and if none are available even camel sticks...and indeed there are speciality dances just for camel sticks... and in Southern Oman; a non-contact dance just for Khanjars. Common sense prevails as to if a sword is or is not viable as a weapon.

In the UAE if a Terrs shield cannot be found with which to do the Mimic Fight (alyaalah!) they simply use a sandal instead of the shield...Mimic Fighting is purely symbolic though carries the added excitement of having a scoring system of the "one point winner" by touching the oponents thumb with the spatulate tip.

What is far more relevant is that the term Sayf was passed on from the Old Omani Battle Sword ~ The SAYF YAMAANI ~ along with the TERRS SHIELD to be honoured in the Funoon by this dancing tool, a simbolic accoutrement...not a weapon system as such but given the name Omani Sayf wa Terrs.

In the case of Shamshir, Nimcha, Shashqa, Zanzibari, Hyderabadi and other Iconic Omani Swords (many quite similar to Bedawi in structure) these can indeed be classed as weapons, however, they are Icons; marks of "Badge of Office" not for going off to battle, though, no doubt they could cause serious harm in a fight... In the case of ships swords(shasqa and nimcha etc) remounted on hawkshead hilts I have pointed out that they were viable on board style cutlass equivalents. All this is is indicated on in this thread and Kattara for comments should you wish to research.

Your Bedawi reference is, as you indicate, ill placed, however, I would suggest that this is an interesting weapon requiring serious research and fine detail...


The Omani dancing Sword is not, nor was it ever, a weapon.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.