Scottish Ribbon Hilt Sword. Maker info

Battara · 2nd March 2012, 04:04 AM

What a great piece and in prime condition!

SERGIU · 2nd March 2012, 01:24 PM

the name of the maker seems to be PETER KNAUFF or KNAUFE

MacArasach · 31st December 2013, 08:31 PM

Well, have lurked for years and this forum, never got to signing up. Then, on a search I found this post.

My Swiss ancestors were from Kanton Zurich. Neff, Nave, Knave, Naff...list goes on and on. All related by DNA. There are about 13 different branches of them! So, good luck! And does not mean your guy is one of my guys. Lutherans, so church records are pretty good till about 1500 or so.

Here in America they were blacksmiths. Landed in America early, prior to 1740. Also very heavily connected to...Scottish side of my family [MacKay - Lord Reay and Middleton. Yes, yes. "Those" Middleton.] Both by marriage and business contacts. Dutch East India Co. My Scottish side were merchants that were known to import from Scotland and Germany to what would become America. Based out of Port Royal, Boston, Rhode Island, Norfolk, VA and Charleston, SC. Also had folks at Darien, GA. The big Scottish settlement.

Hard to tell who he is. I do not have him in our records. But German and Swiss blacksmiths along with cannoniers [sp?] were exempt from many "state" regulations due to their strategic trade. Anyway...

We also had gunsmiths from Scotland into Charleston, SC in the family prior to 1720. So, just plain hard to tell. Shame you could not get some more history from the previous owner to narrow the search? Is it possible a Germanic bladesmith was connected to a Scottish firm? Yupper, sure enough!

Richard G · 1st January 2014, 02:34 PM

Is that just a scroll, or an "S" in the hilt?
Regards
Richard

fernando · 1st January 2014, 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Richard G

Is that just a scroll, or an "S" in the hilt?
Regards
Richard

It looks like a well defined "S" ... for Scotland ?

Jim McDougall · 2nd January 2014, 05:34 AM

Interesting to see this one come up again, and though I could not locate this maker as noted in my 2012 soliloquy, it seems that since then I have seen this maker among listed Solingen smiths, and it does seem the name was Knaupf. I'll have to look again.

It is well established, as I had mentioned in 2012, that blades for Scotland were invariably German produced. It was claimed that Scots often prized Spanish blades, but the examples I have seen on Scottish basket hilts with such blades were also German with spuriously placed Spanish names and marks.
Indeed the Scots were well represented among the colonists here through the 18th century (mine did not arrive in North America until the 1860s then through Canada) . As Mark Eley and I have often noted, it was a Highlander who ended Blackbeard in North Carolina with his trusty broadsword in 1718.

There has been considerable speculation on potential symbology and nuanced motif in these Scottish hilts, but as stated in Scottish parlance, most remain 'unproven'. In a 1997 article by Howard Mesnard ("Early Scottish Edged Weapons and Related Militaria", p.178), the author well notes, "...there is no evidence that the 'S stood for Stirling, Scotland, Stuart or anything else", claiming that the recurved piece was simply a structural spacer in the hilt design.
This seems quite logical as obviously 'Scotland' would be categorically redundant on these distinctive Scottish hilt forms; in many if not most cases Stuart or Jacobite allegiances were signaled in many secret symbols or signs and most of the Stirling made hilts I have seen have varying geometric patterns and designs, mostly without any 'S'.

31st December 2013, 08:31 PM	#3
MacArasach Member Join Date: Dec 2013 Posts: 1	Peter K.....??? Well, have lurked for years and this forum, never got to signing up. Then, on a search I found this post. My Swiss ancestors were from Kanton Zurich. Neff, Nave, Knave, Naff...list goes on and on. All related by DNA. There are about 13 different branches of them! So, good luck! And does not mean your guy is one of my guys. Lutherans, so church records are pretty good till about 1500 or so. Here in America they were blacksmiths. Landed in America early, prior to 1740. Also very heavily connected to...Scottish side of my family [MacKay - Lord Reay and Middleton. Yes, yes. "Those" Middleton.] Both by marriage and business contacts. Dutch East India Co. My Scottish side were merchants that were known to import from Scotland and Germany to what would become America. Based out of Port Royal, Boston, Rhode Island, Norfolk, VA and Charleston, SC. Also had folks at Darien, GA. The big Scottish settlement. Hard to tell who he is. I do not have him in our records. But German and Swiss blacksmiths along with cannoniers [sp?] were exempt from many "state" regulations due to their strategic trade. Anyway... We also had gunsmiths from Scotland into Charleston, SC in the family prior to 1720. So, just plain hard to tell. Shame you could not get some more history from the previous owner to narrow the search? Is it possible a Germanic bladesmith was connected to a Scottish firm? Yupper, sure enough!

2nd March 2012, 04:04 AM	#1
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	What a great piece and in prime condition!

2nd March 2012, 01:24 PM	#2
SERGIU Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Timisoara, Romania Posts: 32	the name of the maker seems to be PETER KNAUFF or KNAUFE

1st January 2014, 02:34 PM	#4
Richard G Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 411	Is that just a scroll, or an "S" in the hilt? Regards Richard

2nd January 2014, 05:34 AM	#6
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Interesting to see this one come up again, and though I could not locate this maker as noted in my 2012 soliloquy, it seems that since then I have seen this maker among listed Solingen smiths, and it does seem the name was Knaupf. I'll have to look again. It is well established, as I had mentioned in 2012, that blades for Scotland were invariably German produced. It was claimed that Scots often prized Spanish blades, but the examples I have seen on Scottish basket hilts with such blades were also German with spuriously placed Spanish names and marks. Indeed the Scots were well represented among the colonists here through the 18th century (mine did not arrive in North America until the 1860s then through Canada) . As Mark Eley and I have often noted, it was a Highlander who ended Blackbeard in North Carolina with his trusty broadsword in 1718. There has been considerable speculation on potential symbology and nuanced motif in these Scottish hilts, but as stated in Scottish parlance, most remain 'unproven'. In a 1997 article by Howard Mesnard ("Early Scottish Edged Weapons and Related Militaria", p.178), the author well notes, "...there is no evidence that the 'S stood for Stirling, Scotland, Stuart or anything else", claiming that the recurved piece was simply a structural spacer in the hilt design. This seems quite logical as obviously 'Scotland' would be categorically redundant on these distinctive Scottish hilt forms; in many if not most cases Stuart or Jacobite allegiances were signaled in many secret symbols or signs and most of the Stirling made hilts I have seen have varying geometric patterns and designs, mostly without any 'S'.