FORMING HOT METAL WITH BARE HANDS

[Rick]

Could not this effect be accomplished with a special tool rather than the hand ?

And who could tell le difference ?

[A. G. Maisey]

Richard, you're 100% correct about never being able to see it.Keris pijit that are accepted as genuine all come from the very distant past.

I've seen genuine things in Jawa that are totally inexplicable, not parlour tricks, but manifestations of powers that cannot be explained with reason, nor logic.

Bear this in mind:- by profession, I'm an auditor. Not a bean counting auditor, but an auditor who deals in areas involving subterfuge, confidence tricks, and other rather interesting things. By nature I'm a sceptic, and better than 50 years in my profession has made me even more sceptical.

Knowing Javanese culture as I do, I am prepared to accept that keris picit could have in some cases been made in a similar way to the way I experimented with. The ones that we accept as genuine are in all cases paper thin sombros, or similar.

I do not believe that it would be possible to actually forge a blade by finger pressure, or by hitting with the hand. I see this as the mixture of myth and reality that is perfectly normal in Jawa. It may be culturally real, but that does not make it fact.

The empus of the distant past were akin to shamans.

They were in some cases, nothing like the current crop of people who can make keris.

Rick:- yes, of course, and the vast bulk of "keris pijit" are the result of coming into contact with something like a ball pein hammer. But there are a very few that we do accept as most probably real.

However, nobody needs to believe that they're real. Its all a matter of how you measure something based upon experience.

[VANDOO]

IN THE KRIS MYSTIC WEAPON OF THE MALAY WORLD BY EDWARD FREY PAGE 10 ARE SOME PICTURES OF FIGURE D AND FIGURE E. THEY MAY BE EXAMPLES OF THIS TECKNIQUE BOTH ARE ARCHAIC KERIS.

I INCLUDE TWO PICTURES OF THE MORO KRIS BLADE THAT GAVE ME THE IDEA OF ASKING IF THERE WAS ANY KNOWLEGE OF THIS TECKNIQUE / STORY APPLYING TO ANY OTHER WEAPONS BESIDES THE KERIS. THESE MAY BE PITS BUT THEY APPEAR TOO UNIFORM AND THE REMAINDER OF THE BLADE LOOKS CLEAN . I WAITED TO USE THE PICTURES UNTIL THE TRANSACTION WAS FINISHED IN THE SWAP FORUM.
FROM WHAT HAS BEEN SAID BY THOSE OF YOU WHO HAVE FORGED AND EVEN ATTEMPTED THIS TECKNIQUE IT WOULD APPEAR LIKELY A TOOL IS USED PERHAPS SHAPED LIKE A FINGER. IT DOES MAKE ONE WONDER WHEN THE STORY CAME INTO BEING.

[David]

Barry, i saw this kris up for sale, but never for a second thought these indentations were formed at the forging. Their placement does not give that impression. I would be more likely to buy into a story of possible damage from bullets before i would think the former.
As for the possibility of this technique being possible with the fingers i have little doubt, though obviously many examples that we see are not done that way.

[Karttikeya]

Genuine paper thin blades with finger pressure markings or what we call Sombro nowadays should have 9 finger pressure marking, no more no less. Most of blades are supposed as tangguh Segaluh and Pajajaran have 9 luk, I myself do not know why should be 9, Anybody know about it? I share some photos of keris Puthut with 9 finger pressure markings. Indentation from pressure markings occured on every pamor wulan-wulan and also Puthut figure seems very artistic, it was as though the pamor gives the detail appearance of Puthut itself.

[David]

Originally Posted by Karttikeya

Genuine paper thin blades with finger pressure markings or what we call Sombro nowadays should have 9 finger pressure marking, no more no less. Most of blades are supposed as tangguh Segaluh and Pajajaran have 9 luk, I myself do not know why should be 9, Anybody know about it? I share some photos of keris Puthut with 9 finger pressure markings. Indentation from pressure markings occured on every pamor wulan-wulan and also Puthut figure seems very artistic, it was as though the pamor gives the detail appearance of Puthut itself.

Interesting keris Karttikeya. I am somewhat confused by you use of terminology. I have never heard this type of keris called "puthut". AFAIK that term is reserved for keris where the figure is at the gandik, not the hilt. I would probably call this a keris sajen or perhaps simply a talismanic keris. Also, AFAIK, not all keris Sombro display pijit, finger indentations. They also do not have an integral figural iron hilt like your example. I am also confused about your claim that "genuine" keris pijit all have 9 indentation marks. I have at least two examples which i would consider to be genuine. One is a what i know as a keris puthut, the other is what i know as a keris Sombro. The Puthut has 5 indentations, the Sombro has 3. I cannot see the indentations on the photo of your example due to the angle of your shot. I have a hard time, though, picturing 9 indentations on what are generally very short blades.

[A. G. Maisey]

Well Karttikeya, that's something new I've learnt!

I rather think a lot of people don't know this information.

[Richard Furrer]

Originally Posted by David

Barry, i saw this kris up for sale, but never for a second thought these indentations were formed at the forging. Their placement does not give that impression. I would be more likely to buy into a story of possible damage from bullets before i would think the former.
As for the possibility of this technique being possible with the fingers i have little doubt, though obviously many examples that we see are not done that way.

I'm afraid I am no help at all with terminology.
As to bullets..remarkable that this blade would have been hit six times and on both sides of the blade...and with no telegraphing of the dent to the opposite side (concave being met with convex..as happens with hail damage to automobiles and all the sheet metal I have in the shop)

As to fingers making those impressions....the spirit is strong, but the flesh is oh so weak.

Vandoo,
Is the patterned pamor nestled into these "finger print" depressions on that blade and not on the opposing side? I would assume this to be the case.

Ric

[David]

Originally Posted by Richard Furrer

As to bullets..remarkable that this blade would have been hit six times and on both sides of the blade...and with no telegraphing of the dent to the opposite side (concave being met with convex..as happens with hail damage to automobiles and all the sheet metal I have in the shop)

Ric, perhaps my sarcasm didn't come through well enough here. When i wrote "I would be more likely to believe..." i meant to imply that i didn't really believe that explanation either, but that it simply seemed more plausible than the former. But both explanations seem implausible to me and these marks appear to be damaged sustained at some point after forging and completely unintentional.

[A. G. Maisey]

A puthut--- or putut--- is a disciple, or servant, or pupil of a holy man. The word exists in Old Javanese. Since the function of a puthut was to protect his teacher, the meaning on a keris blade can be interpreted as protective. However, it does appear to be a later motif, attached to the keris after Islam.

But "puthut" is just the name, and the name may not really indicate the source of inspiration for inclusion. Most keris terminology is comprised of euphemisms, like a lot of belief systems, there is public knowledge and then levels of hidden knowledge.

The number of indentations on a keris pejet that most people will accept as genuine can vary, some people will hold the belief that it can only be a specific number of indentations, placed in a specific way, and this seems to vary depending upon what group of keris fanciers one is aligned with.

The prime identifier for a keris sombro is the eye at the tip of the tang. The legend that goes with this is that she --- Sombro was a woman --- would make a number of blades, string them around her waist, and walk from village to village selling them. She was the daughter of Manca, the grand-daughter Marcukunda, and the great grand-daughter of Kajadsari --- according to Pangeran Wijil.

[David]

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

A puthut--- or putut--- is a disciple, or servant, or pupil of a holy man. The word exists in Old Javanese. Since the function of a puthut was to protect his teacher, the meaning on a keris blade can be interpreted as protective. However, it does appear to be a later motif, attached to the keris after Islam.

But "puthut" is just the name, and the name may not really indicate the source of inspiration for inclusion. Most keris terminology is comprised of euphemisms, like a lot of belief systems, there is public knowledge and then levels of hidden knowledge.

Thanks Alan. I now recall receiving this same info on the meaning of puthut before. My reason for inquiring the meaning of the word was more to understand how the name has now become attached to keris sajen, not why it was originally used to describe what we know as the dhapur keris puthut. I ask because it seems to me that the symbolism and meaning of the figural hilts of keris sajen is not the same as the symbolism of this figure in the dhapur puthut. But since all this info is vague and unsubstantiated, perhaps i am wrong. Or perhaps i just ask too many questions...