Chinese Ottoman... or Impressionalism Trend in Arms Collecting:-)?

ALEX · 23rd February 2012, 12:05 PM

Thanks Ariel and David, you're right it looks ok, and the form is not unknown, but as Rick mentioned - not quite right at details level. here's pix of similar (real) swords refferring to 18th c.

...note the mentioning about large-headed rivets!

Jim McDougall · 24th February 2012, 06:29 PM

Good call Alex with the examples you posted, Im not sure which book these are from but the style is as noted, well placed. In the 18th century there was a profound attraction in Europe to oriental exotica in addition to the well known intrigue with occult, magic and esoterica. These were the source for considerable blade decoration and motif. There were actually even Chinese artisans brought into Poland for work on the flamboyant weapons sought by gentry and nobility. The advent of the smallsword carrying these themes was paralleled by the 'hunting sword' which is misleading in that rather than strictly utilitarian items, these were fashionable elements for dress and court wear.
This type of sword also gained considerable popularity in its use by the flamboyant units of auxiliary troops known as 'pandours' in Austria, which subsequently became known throughout many European armies by the end of the century. This is the reason that military themed panoplies often joined the magical/talismanic motif on the blades. Bashford Dean (1929) illustrates a number of these among the smallswords in his examples, and one notable element I recognize is the striations on the boss type rivets, seen on it seems several of these shown as 18th century. As I have always followed, these kind of subtle nuances are not typically seen on reproductions and 'wall hangers'. As shown in your examples posted, the openwork is also characteristic and recalls similar on many Chinese guards of this period.
There was a style of oriental influenced smallswords usually decorated in shakudo known as 'Tonquinese' as well (Aylward, 1945).

This looks to me a sound example of a European hunting/court sword of mid to late 18th century following the styles well established as discussed.

As far as who is collecting these, there has been a growing interest in smallswords, court swords, and even the seemingly ever present Masonic and fraternal swords as more research and information has become available. Interestingly the very intrigue, mysticism and 'fantasy' which was imbued in these weapons in the 18th century, is the very element attracting so many interested in novelty and fantasy in our times. Many of these items can command formidable prices commensurate with this popularity.

All the best,]
Jim

23rd February 2012, 12:05 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Thanks Ariel and David, you're right it looks ok, and the form is not unknown, but as Rick mentioned - not quite right at details level. here's pix of similar (real) swords refferring to 18th c. ...note the mentioning about large-headed rivets! Attached Images

24th February 2012, 06:29 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,288	Good call Alex with the examples you posted, Im not sure which book these are from but the style is as noted, well placed. In the 18th century there was a profound attraction in Europe to oriental exotica in addition to the well known intrigue with occult, magic and esoterica. These were the source for considerable blade decoration and motif. There were actually even Chinese artisans brought into Poland for work on the flamboyant weapons sought by gentry and nobility. The advent of the smallsword carrying these themes was paralleled by the 'hunting sword' which is misleading in that rather than strictly utilitarian items, these were fashionable elements for dress and court wear. This type of sword also gained considerable popularity in its use by the flamboyant units of auxiliary troops known as 'pandours' in Austria, which subsequently became known throughout many European armies by the end of the century. This is the reason that military themed panoplies often joined the magical/talismanic motif on the blades. Bashford Dean (1929) illustrates a number of these among the smallswords in his examples, and one notable element I recognize is the striations on the boss type rivets, seen on it seems several of these shown as 18th century. As I have always followed, these kind of subtle nuances are not typically seen on reproductions and 'wall hangers'. As shown in your examples posted, the openwork is also characteristic and recalls similar on many Chinese guards of this period. There was a style of oriental influenced smallswords usually decorated in shakudo known as 'Tonquinese' as well (Aylward, 1945). This looks to me a sound example of a European hunting/court sword of mid to late 18th century following the styles well established as discussed. As far as who is collecting these, there has been a growing interest in smallswords, court swords, and even the seemingly ever present Masonic and fraternal swords as more research and information has become available. Interestingly the very intrigue, mysticism and 'fantasy' which was imbued in these weapons in the 18th century, is the very element attracting so many interested in novelty and fantasy in our times. Many of these items can command formidable prices commensurate with this popularity. All the best,] Jim Last edited by Jim McDougall; 26th February 2012 at 06:18 AM.