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22nd February 2012, 10:45 PM
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#1 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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Yes, you are right.
It is old english for the possessive case; in the new morphology the ' replaced the e. |
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22nd February 2012, 11:17 PM
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#2 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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Interesting piece Fernando, The font used on the end of the muzle, bieng totaly sans serif dates post late 1870s when it first started to be used, as far as my observations have taken me. {other than on fake markings of course.} {But such font was still rare untill the 20th century.}.}
The "perhaps" older font used on top of the barrel is clearly done with individual stamps, i have no evidence otherwise for york mail but as the average wood worker could afford stamps cut by an engineer of there entire name, I suspect York Mail could as well. {Especialy as many such stamps were actualy made in Sheffield, Yorkshire.} I vote XXI century For the markings, I am not capable of dating the piece itself. Spiral |
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23rd February 2012, 12:48 AM
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#3 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: CHRISTCHURCH NEW ZEALAND
Posts: 2,786
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A very nice and interesting piece, BUT those marks bother me. IF it is truely an English piece then it SHOULD BY LAW have English Proof marks unless it was made prior to 1630ish. The official Proof House was established around then and official marks started to appear.
The marks on this Blunderbus are not English IMHO unless they are some sort or local Armorers mark. Also it is unusual for the lock not to be marked. Have you given any thought to this not being YORK UK, but (New)York USA? Don't forget that the Brits held sway there until 1776,and would no doubt have run some sort of mail service to their troops. British Proof laws did not (and still don't) have any meaning in the US. Hopefully someone can identify the marks as I for one would like to know more about this piece. As an aftertought, have you checked UNDER the barrel for marks? If you can safely remove it, then it might possibly give up some secrets. The other thing which concerns me a bit is the relatively unblemished lock. A look at the inside of that might also give up some secrets. Regards Stuart. Last edited by kahnjar1; 23rd February 2012 at 04:07 AM. |
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23rd February 2012, 07:37 PM
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#4 |
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Member
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 11
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Blunderbuss
Any blunderbuss displaying supposed Royal Mail ownership markings has to
be viewed with a large degree of scepticism, due to the significant boost to its value granted by an authentic association. I am afraid that I don't think that the Mail related script on this piece is remotely genuine, being quite wrong stylistically and not particularly well executed. The highly respected London gunmaker H. W. Mortimer was an early contractor supplying arms for guards on Royal Mail Coaches circa 1783. An example garniture of arms supplied by Mortimer can be viewed at the National Postal Museum. Mortimer was a top quality gunmaker, and this is reflected in the standard of the guns he supplied to the Crown, the better to withstand the rigours of the Coaching service. I don't feel that this blunderbuss exhibits the high standards of manufacture that would be expected in a Government contract piece. The better quality English makers from this period were justifiably proud of their workmanship and took pains to carefully mark their products, and clear British proofs would be present too. Perhaps removing the lock and barrel from the stock as suggested in an earlier post will shed some light on this gun's origins. Whilst the general appearance suggests an English blunderbuss dating from the 1780s, I'm a little concerned about the the signs of artificial ageing on the handrail stock and what looks like cold blue wash on the lockplate. It's an uncomfortable fact that blunderbusses because of their value and popularity are frequently spuriously marked and faked. I hope that this has not disheartened you too much, but if you paid a premium for this gun as a genuine Royal Mail piece you have good grounds for the return of your money if it was auction or dealer purchased. Best regards,Simon. |
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24th February 2012, 01:35 PM
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#5 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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24th February 2012, 02:52 PM
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#6 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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Maybe this is an Indian reproduction ...
m |
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24th February 2012, 06:57 PM
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#7 | |
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Member
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: FRANCE
Posts: 1,065
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Quote:
I will let you know Thank you for your help Very interesting comment ! I have learn a lot since I have joined this forum ! REGARDS CERJAK |
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24th February 2012, 07:21 AM
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#8 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
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Quote:
Not that it makes that big of a difference, though I guess it would move a hypothetical window for the origin of the stamps a little closer to the age of the gun... 
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24th February 2012, 02:59 PM
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#9 | |
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Posts: 1,712
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Quote:
Spiral |
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24th February 2012, 05:27 PM
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#10 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
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Quote:
 Edward Barnes & Sons was a prolific maker who opened their shop in Sheffield in or around 1833, and were active until the end of the 3rd quarter of the century. However, by the time of the Civil War, it was common to find "Sheffield" stamped along with the maker's name and/or trademark, and there is no shortage of examples made in or around 1850 that were already stamped "Sheffield" along with the maker's name. One note: I cannot speak with absolute certitude that this knife dates as early as I believe it to, and it is entirely possible that I am mistaken with regards to my date attribution. Furthermore, I have known more than one example contemporary to this knife - and even later - in which serif fonts were still used in the dye stamps. I also have lying around somewhere an old Thomas Gill file knife, old enough to still employ an etched trademark, but with a "... Warranted ..." stamp that uses sans serif fonts as well, though it may take a bit of digging to find that one...  One final note - if Wiki is to be trusted, the first documented use of the term 'sans serif' by a foundry in England to describe such a font was in 1830. If this is valid, one has to assume the font existed before the label which came into use to describe it... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sans-se...tin_characters
Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 24th February 2012 at 06:17 PM. |
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24th February 2012, 05:39 PM
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#11 |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Bavaria, Germany - the center of 15th and 16th century gunmaking
Posts: 4,310
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Hi folks,
Are you sure that these posts on knives are placed in the right thread on a blunderbuss?!  Best, Michael |
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24th February 2012, 05:45 PM
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#12 | |
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(deceased)
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Portugal
Posts: 9,694
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24th February 2012, 06:16 PM
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#13 | |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
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Quote:
I would humbly argue it is relevant in the context of the question surrounding the font type that appears in the stamp(s) used on the muzzle... While it is commonly accepted that such font types did not appear until the 4th quarter of the 19th century, there seem to be multiple examples of the use of such a font well before the 'accepted' timeframe... The presence of possible evidence supportive of an earlier (though surely uncommon) use of such a font type in dye stamps might prevent us from prematurely dismissing the stamps as inauthentic. That being said, I recently saw at auction two very well done fakes, including a pistol that incorporated an original barrel but with questionable (if not altogether spurious) markings... |
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26th February 2012, 11:05 PM
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#14 |
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Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
Posts: 1,712
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Thank You laEspadaAncha, unfortuantly to my eyes the appaling fit of blade to guard & hilt to guard as well as the use of brass as a guard to me eye looks even without the late font looks to be more likely 1970s Pakistan made item, rather than 19th century Sheffield
Perhaps I am wrong though? I would recomend Bernard Levines forum on bladeforums for a more "solid" opinion though, Hes an ornery old chap but has a great knowledge of old Sheffield pieces. { As do one or two others there including a chap who now a collector was a cutler in Sheffield many decades ago.} Spiral |
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27th February 2012, 02:16 AM
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#15 |
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Member
Join Date: Aug 2006
Posts: 608
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Hi Spiral,
I would suggest visting my Bowie knife thread from a year or so ago for an additional example of a mid-19th century knife with a brass guard. However, if the guard (on the side knife I show above) is brass, it is a white brass alloy, and more likely, German silver with a tarnish. Regardless, both the guard material and form as found on this knife (pointed ovoid) were common for mid-19th century knives (the thread also has a photograph of this particular knife): http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showthread.php?t=13612 For that matter, if you can find even a single example - just one - of a Pakistani knock-off (contemporary or otherwise) that exhibits the proper "U*S" trademark stamp used by Edward Barnes & Sons to market their knives to the abolitionist American market - and as present in this example - I would very seriously consider sending you this knife for free. I agree the fitment is less than optimal, though I have more than a few knives that exhibit similar less-than-stellar fits, and have handled more examples than I can remember over the last 20-25 years. Both the guard material and form are common for mid-19th century knives, the 'white metal' used in the grip was commonly used through the 2nd and 3rd quarter of the 19th century (though IMO it is not the best choice for a grip), the MoP rosettes are stylistically consistent with the period, and the knife retains it's original sheath, which is obviously of the same age of the knife. I do in fact post on Bladeforums, as long before I could afford a decent sword I had been collecting American knives (while not made in the US, this knife was made for the American market), and I estimate I have more than 200 in my collection, from Revolutionary War side knives to LE folders made within the last quarter century. As I regret having digressed from the original topic of this thread - and have already apologized for the same to Cerjak - I would invite you to PM me with an email address if you would like to continue the discussion about this particular knife, which I would be happy to do. I will, however, leave you with a couple pictures of other Edward Barnes & Sons knives contemporary to my own, stamped in the same sans serif font. Ironically, this first knife was posted on Bladeforums (over two years ago). Please note the similarities with regards to the thickness and pointed ovoid shape of the guard:  The etching on the above example reads, "For the Gold Searchers Protection," dating this knife's manufacture to the Gold Rush market ca. 1850. This next example was made to commemorate General Zachary Taylor's victory at the Battle of Buena Vista in 1847. Please note the use of both a sans serif font as well as a 'footed' font on the reverse of the blade:  Lastly, here is another example from Cowans, yet another Civil War era Edward Barnes & Sons knife that is stamped in a sans serif font. Please note the poor fit of the guard:  There is overwhelming evidence that English cutlers were employing the use of a sans serif font by mid-century. Provided evidence exists that foundries were producing dye stamps in sans serif fonts in 1850, one should at the very least consider the validity of the anecdotal evidence suggesting they were being produced as early as 1830 as suggested in the link in my last response, which is much closer to the lifecycle of this weapon than a date of post-1870. I would therefore suggest that regardless of any perceived peculiarities regarding the execution and/or placement of the stamp(s) on the muzzle, that it might be premature to dismiss its validity for the use of the (sans serif) font per se. Regards, Chris Last edited by laEspadaAncha; 27th February 2012 at 06:42 AM. Reason: To capitalize German... my castle for a proofreader! |
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