Spanish cup-hilts and bilbos for naval use?

M ELEY · 17th February 2012, 09:15 PM

'The Spanish Main:1492-1800' (Osprey Publishing)

A contemporary etching/portrait of Captain-General Pedro Menendez de Aviles, naval commander of the man-o-war that protected the Treasure Fleets and who also wiped out the French Protestants at Matanzas/founded St Augustine.

His portrait shows him with classic cup-hilt, extended side bars, olive-shaped pommel, wire-wrapped grip with 4 posts securing grip material. Finally! A little proof. Can't wait to get the other loaned books...

M ELEY · 7th April 2012, 04:00 AM

Hello all. Having read through numerous selected materials on the Spanish and Portuguese in the New World, I came across the obvious answer to my question which made me feel like a dunce that I hadn't seen it before.

Unlike the rest of the naval powers at the time (1650-1775 or so), these nations always carried a contingent of soldiers aboard their treasure ships (both the Portuguese and Spanish Treasure Fleets) to directly defend against piracy. Thus, these soldiers would have carried the standard arm of their military branch (bilbos and cuphilts). Yes, I know that Sir Walter Raleigh and the like were "soldier/sailors", but for the most part, the Navy typically didn't have other branches of the military on their ships. It wasn't until the Brits started using the Royal Marines in the high tops (a practice carried over to the U.S.) that we see other military forces being 'routinely' utilized.

Jim McDougall · 7th April 2012, 03:23 PM

Hi Mark,
Good work on that research! Your threads are always fascinating because of course of your field of study, maritime weapons, which leads into the prime subjects of piracy, shipwrecks, Spanish treasure fleets.....and all adventure on the seas and colonies.
Actually the question about the use of the cuphilt at sea was, like the use of virtually any edged weapons at sea, a well placed thought but understandably tricky in categorizing broadly.
Naturally your perspective was on what was used by the officers and crews that manned the ships, but the presence of other than seagoing crew would be a factor relatively outside that denominator, so no need for the pointed hat!!

Thanks for keeping this thread going, and for always sharing the updates on your ever intriguing research!!!
Speaking of ongoing, we are about to get out of drydock here in Texas and this years expedition is planned eastward into Florida, and hopefully Carolina bound after that! Instead of barnacles, we are removing tumbleweeds from our vessel, the good ship Winnebago

Time to get out the shipwreck materials, yay!

All the best,
Jim
Jim

fernando · 7th April 2012, 03:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim McDougall

... Instead of barnacles, we are removing tumbleweeds from our vessel, the good ship Winnebago

Time to get out the shipwreck materials, yay! ...

.

fernando · 7th April 2012, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M ELEY

... I came across the obvious answer to my question which made me feel like a dunce that I hadn't seen it before.

...

Ah, my friend ... the egg of Columbus

M ELEY · 7th April 2012, 11:22 PM

Hello Jim,
Great to hear from you as always. Yeah! The HMS Winnebago has set sail! Batten the hatches and full ahead! If you make it to the NC coast, Jim, you need to visit historic Beaufort, NC (Spanish horses dating to the Conquestadores running along the Shackleford Banks, the Old Graveyard with numerous maritime stories/ghost tales, the 3 maritime museums on the coast, Fort Macon at Emerald Isle, Blackbeard's house in Beaufort, historic Bath (where Blackbeard lived), Okracoke Island (Blackbeard's final resting place and where Steede Bonnet was captured), Blackbeard exhibit for the QAR...did I mention Blackbeard?? ANyway, you could drop by if you are closer to the mountains, my friend!

Hello Fernando,
Can I get that egg fried with a side of bacon?

P.S. Nice pics of the Book Mobile!

17th February 2012, 09:15 PM	#1
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	Pay-dirt! 'The Spanish Main:1492-1800' (Osprey Publishing) A contemporary etching/portrait of Captain-General Pedro Menendez de Aviles, naval commander of the man-o-war that protected the Treasure Fleets and who also wiped out the French Protestants at Matanzas/founded St Augustine. His portrait shows him with classic cup-hilt, extended side bars, olive-shaped pommel, wire-wrapped grip with 4 posts securing grip material. Finally! A little proof. Can't wait to get the other loaned books...

7th April 2012, 04:00 AM	#2
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	Hello all. Having read through numerous selected materials on the Spanish and Portuguese in the New World, I came across the obvious answer to my question which made me feel like a dunce that I hadn't seen it before. Unlike the rest of the naval powers at the time (1650-1775 or so), these nations always carried a contingent of soldiers aboard their treasure ships (both the Portuguese and Spanish Treasure Fleets) to directly defend against piracy. Thus, these soldiers would have carried the standard arm of their military branch (bilbos and cuphilts). Yes, I know that Sir Walter Raleigh and the like were "soldier/sailors", but for the most part, the Navy typically didn't have other branches of the military on their ships. It wasn't until the Brits started using the Royal Marines in the high tops (a practice carried over to the U.S.) that we see other military forces being 'routinely' utilized.

7th April 2012, 03:23 PM	#3
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	Hi Mark, Good work on that research! Your threads are always fascinating because of course of your field of study, maritime weapons, which leads into the prime subjects of piracy, shipwrecks, Spanish treasure fleets.....and all adventure on the seas and colonies. Actually the question about the use of the cuphilt at sea was, like the use of virtually any edged weapons at sea, a well placed thought but understandably tricky in categorizing broadly. Naturally your perspective was on what was used by the officers and crews that manned the ships, but the presence of other than seagoing crew would be a factor relatively outside that denominator, so no need for the pointed hat!! Thanks for keeping this thread going, and for always sharing the updates on your ever intriguing research!!! Speaking of ongoing, we are about to get out of drydock here in Texas and this years expedition is planned eastward into Florida, and hopefully Carolina bound after that! Instead of barnacles, we are removing tumbleweeds from our vessel, the good ship Winnebago Time to get out the shipwreck materials, yay! All the best, Jim Jim

7th April 2012, 11:22 PM	#6
M ELEY Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: NC, U.S.A. Posts: 2,159	Hello Jim, Great to hear from you as always. Yeah! The HMS Winnebago has set sail! Batten the hatches and full ahead! If you make it to the NC coast, Jim, you need to visit historic Beaufort, NC (Spanish horses dating to the Conquestadores running along the Shackleford Banks, the Old Graveyard with numerous maritime stories/ghost tales, the 3 maritime museums on the coast, Fort Macon at Emerald Isle, Blackbeard's house in Beaufort, historic Bath (where Blackbeard lived), Okracoke Island (Blackbeard's final resting place and where Steede Bonnet was captured), Blackbeard exhibit for the QAR...did I mention Blackbeard?? ANyway, you could drop by if you are closer to the mountains, my friend! Hello Fernando, Can I get that egg fried with a side of bacon? P.S. Nice pics of the Book Mobile!