The 4 letter "B"-word

[ariel]

I certainly agree with Jim: this is not a throwing spear. It is far too heavy and likely poorly balanced for throwing.
Jim , I never thought of the Chinese Connection:-)
Indeed, zaghnal ( Raven's Beak) looks very similar. Do you think the chain extended further to Europe, through Massagetan examples to Turks ( djokan), Russia ( klevetz or chekan) all the way to medieval Poland ( Nadziak) and Western Europe ravensbeak?

[Jim McDougall]

Originally Posted by ariel

I certainly agree with Jim: this is not a throwing spear. It is far too heavy and likely poorly balanced for throwing.
Jim , I never thought of the Chinese Connection:-)
Indeed, zaghnal ( Raven's Beak) looks very similar. Do you think the chain extended further to Europe, through Massagetan examples to Turks ( djokan), Russia ( klevetz or chekan) all the way to medieval Poland ( Nadziak) and Western Europe ravensbeak?

Thanks very much Ariel
Actually the Chinese connection has been something I had thought of some years ago in my usual escapades in studying arms in it seems erratic directions always on different tangents. I suppose much of the ideas must be admittedly free association, simply noticing similarities in features and form. In recent years the complex web of trade networks has been in degree unraveled to reveal incredibly plausible possibilities in the diffusion of influences over vast distances and long periods of time. All those examples of weapons you have noted I think have likely some degree of connection possible, but in actuality these simply fashioned designs could well have developed convergently. Think of other 'ravens beak' types of war axes in Africa, and far distant in Japan as well, which of course reinforces the idea of convergency....yet the 'Chinese connection' could as well have influenced via trade in both of these directions independantly....definitely food for thought!

All the best,
Jim

[Stan S.]

Sadly the bhuj arrived in far worst condition than I expected. Wobbly blade and all. I will be taking advantage of the sellers return policy and shipping it back to England tomorrow. Oh well

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Salaams Stan. Great pity. You were, however,asking for references and study so ... I typed into Forum Search ....Bhuj ... and Jens Nordlunde has a brilliant thread in there entitled Differences in Indian weapons. It might help with chosing quality weapons therefor possibly save the problem of returning items etc.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Stan S.]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Stan. Great pity. You were, however,asking for references and study so ... I typed into Forum Search ....Bhuj ... and Jens Nordlunde has a brilliant thread in there entitled Differences in Indian weapons. It might help with chosing quality weapons therefor possibly save the problem of returning items etc.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Dear sir, I am familiar with the thread you are referring to. And while I agree with your remark on the weapons quality, a collector must also take into account his personal budgetary constraints. Sadly, I am unable to afford many of the gold and jewel encrusted museum pieces that are ocasionally offered for sale, and must resort to obtaining simpler versions designed for fighting rather than display/parade/gift purposes. In doing so, I came across quite a few treasures. Still, I find that the quality of the weapon and its condition are not always one and the same.

The item in question turned out to have damaged rivets both holding the elephant head in place and the one securing the blade. Neither of which was mentioned in the description. Plus, the portion of the haft that fits inside the head appears to have been bent. This could be a sign of neglect while in the hands of the previous owner or genuine damage from the item being used in its day. Such damage is possible even with a weapon of highest quality, such as the downside of buying on-line I was actually quite pleased with the quality of this simple bhuj but chose not to be responsible for repairing the damage, thus it is going back to the seller.

[David]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Stan. Great pity. You were, however,asking for references and study so ... I typed into Forum Search ....Bhuj ... and Jens Nordlunde has a brilliant thread in there entitled Differences in Indian weapons. It might help with chosing quality weapons therefor possibly save the problem of returning items etc.
Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I presume this is the thread you were referencing. I have placed a link here to make the access a bit easier.
http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=bhuj
I am also attaching the images that Stan linked to above. A good practice since these links my well disappear at any time. I have also added a few more images from other sources, just to add to the collection.

[laEspadaAncha]

Hi Stan,

I don't know if you've already dropped your bhuj in the mail for its return journey, but FWIW, I am of the opinion the design of the weapon is inherently flawed, and in my own lone example, there is a little 'battle rattle' at the join between the blade and the hilt, IMO a natural consequence of securing a short (or virtually no) tang blade to the haft with a single rivet...

[templarnight]

Looking at some of the pictures posted above it seems that they dont have a 'tang' either.

They also seem to be secured by a rivet.

Is this not correct then?