The 4 letter "B"-word

ariel · 11th February 2012, 05:30 PM

I would hesitate attributing all 3 bhujes to the same workshop: the form was highly formalized and, in the absence of markings, could have been manufactured by different masters over many years.

I see why Jim mentions Zaghnal as a potential relative: both come from Sindh and the idea of reorienting the blade might have been appealing to the natives. However, zaghnal was essentially a pick, and an axe would be its closest relative. After all, both axe and zaghnal lack mechanical attributes for slashing or thrusting; only a chopping, penetrating hit was effective.
I have two bhuj-like relatives: what Egerton called Buckie ( Plate X). This is essentially a broad short blade mounted on a long handle, but with no recurving, thickened mail-piercing tip or elephant head. My guess, from the purely engineering point of view, they allowed both powerful slashing ( long lever) and thrusting. Bhuj might have been more effective against a mailed/helmeted opponent due to its mass and reinforcement of the tip.

Nice find.
Still, tell your wife you got it for $10.55 at the most :-)

Jim McDougall · 11th February 2012, 11:39 PM

I forgot to mention, I am inclined to doubt that the bhuj would have been thrown, at least as a practice, as it would no longer be in hand for its continued use. Naturally, in the heat of battle anything might happen, but I dont think this would have normally been done.
As Ariel points out, it would be doubtful that all of these examples could have been from the same shop or smith, but as I mentioned, if the examples match up accordingly to indicate the same casting mold, then obviously.
It is interesting that these forms had apparant origins in Sind to the north of the Rajasthan and Gujerat areas in which they predominate. The slightly recurved blade of the bhuj is remarkably similar to spearheads on weapons in the south, of forms seen there and in Sinhala. As always it is intriguing to try to interpret directions of diffusion and influence based on these similarities but at this point I thought it simply worthy of note.
As for the zaghnol, I have always found the potential for association to the bronze age dagger axe of China compelling, and considered the trade routes along the Silk Roads likely for diffusion. However, there is an enormous chronological gap and no reliable line of development I am aware of to do other than presume association simply by nature of the form.

ariel · 12th February 2012, 02:59 AM

I certainly agree with Jim: this is not a throwing spear. It is far too heavy and likely poorly balanced for throwing.
Jim , I never thought of the Chinese Connection:-)
Indeed, zaghnal ( Raven's Beak) looks very similar. Do you think the chain extended further to Europe, through Massagetan examples to Turks ( djokan), Russia ( klevetz or chekan) all the way to medieval Poland ( Nadziak) and Western Europe ravensbeak?

Jim McDougall · 12th February 2012, 03:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

I certainly agree with Jim: this is not a throwing spear. It is far too heavy and likely poorly balanced for throwing.
Jim , I never thought of the Chinese Connection:-)
Indeed, zaghnal ( Raven's Beak) looks very similar. Do you think the chain extended further to Europe, through Massagetan examples to Turks ( djokan), Russia ( klevetz or chekan) all the way to medieval Poland ( Nadziak) and Western Europe ravensbeak?

Thanks very much Ariel

Actually the Chinese connection has been something I had thought of some years ago in my usual escapades in studying arms in it seems erratic directions always on different tangents. I suppose much of the ideas must be admittedly free association, simply noticing similarities in features and form. In recent years the complex web of trade networks has been in degree unraveled to reveal incredibly plausible possibilities in the diffusion of influences over vast distances and long periods of time. All those examples of weapons you have noted I think have likely some degree of connection possible, but in actuality these simply fashioned designs could well have developed convergently. Think of other 'ravens beak' types of war axes in Africa, and far distant in Japan as well, which of course reinforces the idea of convergency....yet the 'Chinese connection' could as well have influenced via trade in both of these directions independantly....definitely food for thought!

All the best,
Jim

Stan S. · 28th February 2012, 02:41 AM

Sadly the bhuj arrived in far worst condition than I expected. Wobbly blade and all. I will be taking advantage of the sellers return policy and shipping it back to England tomorrow. Oh well

Ibrahiim al Balooshi · 28th February 2012, 07:09 AM

Salaams Stan. Great pity. You were, however,asking for references and study so ... I typed into Forum Search ....Bhuj ... and Jens Nordlunde has a brilliant thread in there entitled Differences in Indian weapons. It might help with chosing quality weapons therefor possibly save the problem of returning items etc.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Stan S. · 28th February 2012, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Stan. Great pity. You were, however,asking for references and study so ... I typed into Forum Search ....Bhuj ... and Jens Nordlunde has a brilliant thread in there entitled Differences in Indian weapons. It might help with chosing quality weapons therefor possibly save the problem of returning items etc.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

Dear sir, I am familiar with the thread you are referring to. And while I agree with your remark on the weapons quality, a collector must also take into account his personal budgetary constraints. Sadly, I am unable to afford many of the gold and jewel encrusted museum pieces that are ocasionally offered for sale, and must resort to obtaining simpler versions designed for fighting rather than display/parade/gift purposes. In doing so, I came across quite a few treasures. Still, I find that the quality of the weapon and its condition are not always one and the same.

The item in question turned out to have damaged rivets both holding the elephant head in place and the one securing the blade. Neither of which was mentioned in the description. Plus, the portion of the haft that fits inside the head appears to have been bent. This could be a sign of neglect while in the hands of the previous owner or genuine damage from the item being used in its day. Such damage is possible even with a weapon of highest quality, such as the downside of buying on-line

I was actually quite pleased with the quality of this simple bhuj but chose not to be responsible for repairing the damage, thus it is going back to the seller.

David · 28th February 2012, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Stan. Great pity. You were, however,asking for references and study so ... I typed into Forum Search ....Bhuj ... and Jens Nordlunde has a brilliant thread in there entitled Differences in Indian weapons. It might help with chosing quality weapons therefor possibly save the problem of returning items etc.

Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I presume this is the thread you were referencing. I have placed a link here to make the access a bit easier.

http://www.vikingsword.com/vb/showth...highlight=bhuj
I am also attaching the images that Stan linked to above. A good practice since these links my well disappear at any time. I have also added a few more images from other sources, just to add to the collection.

11th February 2012, 05:30 PM	#1
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I would hesitate attributing all 3 bhujes to the same workshop: the form was highly formalized and, in the absence of markings, could have been manufactured by different masters over many years. I see why Jim mentions Zaghnal as a potential relative: both come from Sindh and the idea of reorienting the blade might have been appealing to the natives. However, zaghnal was essentially a pick, and an axe would be its closest relative. After all, both axe and zaghnal lack mechanical attributes for slashing or thrusting; only a chopping, penetrating hit was effective. I have two bhuj-like relatives: what Egerton called Buckie ( Plate X). This is essentially a broad short blade mounted on a long handle, but with no recurving, thickened mail-piercing tip or elephant head. My guess, from the purely engineering point of view, they allowed both powerful slashing ( long lever) and thrusting. Bhuj might have been more effective against a mailed/helmeted opponent due to its mass and reinforcement of the tip. Nice find. Still, tell your wife you got it for $10.55 at the most :-)

11th February 2012, 11:39 PM	#2
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,281	I forgot to mention, I am inclined to doubt that the bhuj would have been thrown, at least as a practice, as it would no longer be in hand for its continued use. Naturally, in the heat of battle anything might happen, but I dont think this would have normally been done. As Ariel points out, it would be doubtful that all of these examples could have been from the same shop or smith, but as I mentioned, if the examples match up accordingly to indicate the same casting mold, then obviously. It is interesting that these forms had apparant origins in Sind to the north of the Rajasthan and Gujerat areas in which they predominate. The slightly recurved blade of the bhuj is remarkably similar to spearheads on weapons in the south, of forms seen there and in Sinhala. As always it is intriguing to try to interpret directions of diffusion and influence based on these similarities but at this point I thought it simply worthy of note. As for the zaghnol, I have always found the potential for association to the bronze age dagger axe of China compelling, and considered the trade routes along the Silk Roads likely for diffusion. However, there is an enormous chronological gap and no reliable line of development I am aware of to do other than presume association simply by nature of the form.

12th February 2012, 02:59 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I certainly agree with Jim: this is not a throwing spear. It is far too heavy and likely poorly balanced for throwing. Jim , I never thought of the Chinese Connection:-) Indeed, zaghnal ( Raven's Beak) looks very similar. Do you think the chain extended further to Europe, through Massagetan examples to Turks ( djokan), Russia ( klevetz or chekan) all the way to medieval Poland ( Nadziak) and Western Europe ravensbeak?

28th February 2012, 02:41 AM	#5
Stan S. Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Brooklyn, NY USA Posts: 227	Sadly the bhuj arrived in far worst condition than I expected. Wobbly blade and all. I will be taking advantage of the sellers return policy and shipping it back to England tomorrow. Oh well

28th February 2012, 07:09 AM	#6
Ibrahiim al Balooshi Member Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: Buraimi Oman, on the border with the UAE Posts: 4,408	Salaams Stan. Great pity. You were, however,asking for references and study so ... I typed into Forum Search ....Bhuj ... and Jens Nordlunde has a brilliant thread in there entitled Differences in Indian weapons. It might help with chosing quality weapons therefor possibly save the problem of returning items etc. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi.