Khyber and Choora with Bukharan (?) twists

AJ1356 · 4th February 2012, 01:19 PM

Eventhough Seylaawa's are attributed to the Khyber pass, it does not mean they are all made there. I find the source of confussion the inaccurate names that were given to many ethnographic weapons. That being said, the background of the non-pashtu speaking people of what is today Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are pretty close. Plus Bukhara and Samarqand are actually Tajik cities not Uzbek(which by twist of faith are located in todays Uzbekistan). Therefore the motives on art work are pretty close to each other since there was trade, and an artisan would mostlikely copy styles of different regions to make his handywork look better. Plus there were lots of immegrants from Bukhara and Samarqand in Afghanistan whose handywork would resemble the styles of thier homelands. Turqouise is a pretty common stone and is not exclusively used by a certain ethnicity. Choora is another term that no-one uses in Afghanistan, we simply know them as Kard (knife). Anyways, They are both nice peices and I believe were made by more skilled smiths of Kabul or other bigger cities.

fspic · 5th February 2012, 05:25 AM

An associate who collects these things says the long bladed version of the kard in the illustration is a choora. Or at least in America and other English speaking places. Mine has a blade length of 18" and a larger grip.

ariel · 5th February 2012, 06:24 AM

Which one did he refer to?

ariel · 5th February 2012, 08:49 AM

AJ1356:
"Plus Bukhara and Samarqand are actually Tajik cities not Uzbek(which by twist of faith are located in todays Uzbekistan)."

At the time these two weapons were made, there were neither Tajikistan, nor Uzbekistan: just a medley of khanates. Tajiks are Persian-speaking, and Uzbeks speak Turkic dialect. Tajiks originally were land-settled, while Uzbeks trace themselves to the nomadic descendants of Gengiz Khan. Tajiks usually view themselves as belonging to a "civilized" race, and despise "barbaric" Uzbek intruders ( even though those lived there since 6th or 7th century and many likely belonged to the same ethic group originally). Their food is virtually identical, but with some twists: Uzbeks, for example, have dishes from horse meat and use milk, while Tajiks don't ( both staples likely reflecting nomadic past of the Uzbeks). In both places, Sunni Islam is predominant, however.

In the former Soviet Union one was taking his life in his own hands by mistakenly referring to a Tajik as Uzbek.

A somewhat similar animosity was encountered in former Yugoslavia, between, say, Serbs and Croats or Bosnians. The apparent silliness of that approach finally culminated in tragic outcomes of wars and mass murders during WWII and quite recently.

AJ1356 · 5th February 2012, 01:21 PM

Ariel, when I said Samarqand and Bukhara are Tajik cities it did not mean they are or were part of todays Tajikistan, it meant that when these 2 items were made and somewhat to this day, those 2 cities were predominantly populated by Tajiks. Actually they were populated by Farsi speakers well before the Mongol invation.

ariel · 5th February 2012, 04:17 PM

Let's stop right here. From personal experience on this Forum, nothing good comes out of the discussions dealing with ethnic policies, grievancies and perceived primacies.
May they all enjoy the proverbial life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

I have a book on Uzbek metalwork, nothing on Tajik; do you know of any? Did Tajiks use turquoise ribbons on their weapons? To the best of my knowledge, this was characteristic of Bukhara proper. Any apple blossoms as a decorating element? Do you know of any published examples of unquestionably Tajik swords, manufacturing centers etc? I just know the difference between the knives: Uzbeki Pichok ( P'chack) vs. Tajik Kord ( subtle but obvious).
Best.

Gavin Nugent · 5th February 2012, 05:38 PM

From a Russian Museum site;

The Central Asian name of turquoise derived from Iranian word firusa - victory; therefore its presence on the weapon endowed the latter with especially strong magic power, providing good luck at war. Turquoise became especially common in war paraphernalia of Turkic peoples.

This would explain the stones being seen across a vast area.

fspic · 5th February 2012, 11:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Which one did he refer to?

He referred to the shorter knife in your illustration. The longer one is as we call it here, is a Khyber knife/sword. The short one does have a much longer version which is called a choora. I will try to get a pic of mine and send it to you directly. I also have a khyber "sword" which is rather older and which this party said would have been still longer had not the tip been presumably broken off and blended in the usual upsweep. This one has a metal bird's head grip and koftgari scratching visible. He also said it was likely gold koftgari for that time period and blade and handle type. This latter blade would have been over 30" long.

ariel · 6th February 2012, 12:59 AM

I said from the beginning that the "shorter one" was choora. It is of a reasonably normal size: 17" in the scabbard.
Wold love to see your example.

AJ1356 · 6th February 2012, 03:42 AM

The so-called apple blossom is a common motive, residents of Bukhara were perdominantly Tajik, so thier handywork would be Tajik not Uzbek. If no collector book is printed on a subject does not mean it does not exist, and is this book the same book that tells you there was an arsenal in Mazar e Sharif, that made stuff with the mosque stamp? I am trying to provide proper information for the benefit of everyone, because there are heaps of wrong information floating around. If you don't want to accept that because it is not in a book, that is your right.

Rick · 6th February 2012, 03:50 AM

And we will all take a deep breath and smile at one another before we continue, yes ?

ariel · 6th February 2012, 12:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AJ1356

The so-called apple blossom is a common motive, residents of Bukhara were perdominantly Tajik, so thier handywork would be Tajik not Uzbek. If no collector book is printed on a subject does not mean it does not exist, and is this book the same book that tells you there was an arsenal in Mazar e Sharif, that made stuff with the mosque stamp? I am trying to provide proper information for the benefit of everyone, because there are heaps of wrong information floating around. If you don't want to accept that because it is not in a book, that is your right.

Many thanks for your opinions. I respect them, but would like to have them supported by a more systematic source.
The Uzbeki book is the only one I have on Central Asian weapons ( except for Moser and a chapter in Elgood's book on Islamic Weapons). We all try to rely on published and peer-reviewed academic literature, don't we?
You might be right, and the what we traditionally call Bukharan style ( or Samarkand, or Chust, or whatever, - they are all discussed and differentiated in the book Song in Metal, published in Uzbekistan, by Uzbeki authors), is actually Tajik, not Uzbek, handiwork and tradition.
There are studies on Caucasian weapons differentiating West Georgian from East Georgian, Lak from Avar, Meghreli from Circassian styles etc, etc. Similarly, Elgood tried to find peculiarities of weapons produced in Boka Kotorska, Foca, Bosnia and others.
I am interested how do you differentiate Tajik from Uzbeki weapons and styles? Just an assertions that there were Tajiks in Uzbekistan is not enough: there were, and still are, Uzbeks living in Dushanbe and other Tajik areas.

In short, you provide a tantalizing piece of information, and we all would like to have it supported by academic evidence.
Best wishes.

4th February 2012, 01:19 PM	#1
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	Eventhough Seylaawa's are attributed to the Khyber pass, it does not mean they are all made there. I find the source of confussion the inaccurate names that were given to many ethnographic weapons. That being said, the background of the non-pashtu speaking people of what is today Afghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are pretty close. Plus Bukhara and Samarqand are actually Tajik cities not Uzbek(which by twist of faith are located in todays Uzbekistan). Therefore the motives on art work are pretty close to each other since there was trade, and an artisan would mostlikely copy styles of different regions to make his handywork look better. Plus there were lots of immegrants from Bukhara and Samarqand in Afghanistan whose handywork would resemble the styles of thier homelands. Turqouise is a pretty common stone and is not exclusively used by a certain ethnicity. Choora is another term that no-one uses in Afghanistan, we simply know them as Kard (knife). Anyways, They are both nice peices and I believe were made by more skilled smiths of Kabul or other bigger cities. Last edited by AJ1356; 4th February 2012 at 04:54 PM.

5th February 2012, 05:25 AM	#2
fspic Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 27	An associate who collects these things says the long bladed version of the kard in the illustration is a choora. Or at least in America and other English speaking places. Mine has a blade length of 18" and a larger grip.

5th February 2012, 06:24 AM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Which one did he refer to?

5th February 2012, 08:49 AM	#4
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	AJ1356: "Plus Bukhara and Samarqand are actually Tajik cities not Uzbek(which by twist of faith are located in todays Uzbekistan)." At the time these two weapons were made, there were neither Tajikistan, nor Uzbekistan: just a medley of khanates. Tajiks are Persian-speaking, and Uzbeks speak Turkic dialect. Tajiks originally were land-settled, while Uzbeks trace themselves to the nomadic descendants of Gengiz Khan. Tajiks usually view themselves as belonging to a "civilized" race, and despise "barbaric" Uzbek intruders ( even though those lived there since 6th or 7th century and many likely belonged to the same ethic group originally). Their food is virtually identical, but with some twists: Uzbeks, for example, have dishes from horse meat and use milk, while Tajiks don't ( both staples likely reflecting nomadic past of the Uzbeks). In both places, Sunni Islam is predominant, however. In the former Soviet Union one was taking his life in his own hands by mistakenly referring to a Tajik as Uzbek. A somewhat similar animosity was encountered in former Yugoslavia, between, say, Serbs and Croats or Bosnians. The apparent silliness of that approach finally culminated in tragic outcomes of wars and mass murders during WWII and quite recently.

5th February 2012, 01:21 PM	#5
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	Ariel, when I said Samarqand and Bukhara are Tajik cities it did not mean they are or were part of todays Tajikistan, it meant that when these 2 items were made and somewhat to this day, those 2 cities were predominantly populated by Tajiks. Actually they were populated by Farsi speakers well before the Mongol invation.

5th February 2012, 04:17 PM	#6
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Let's stop right here. From personal experience on this Forum, nothing good comes out of the discussions dealing with ethnic policies, grievancies and perceived primacies. May they all enjoy the proverbial life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. I have a book on Uzbek metalwork, nothing on Tajik; do you know of any? Did Tajiks use turquoise ribbons on their weapons? To the best of my knowledge, this was characteristic of Bukhara proper. Any apple blossoms as a decorating element? Do you know of any published examples of unquestionably Tajik swords, manufacturing centers etc? I just know the difference between the knives: Uzbeki Pichok ( P'chack) vs. Tajik Kord ( subtle but obvious). Best.

5th February 2012, 05:38 PM	#7
Gavin Nugent Member Join Date: Oct 2007 Posts: 2,818	From a Russian Museum site; The Central Asian name of turquoise derived from Iranian word firusa - victory; therefore its presence on the weapon endowed the latter with especially strong magic power, providing good luck at war. Turquoise became especially common in war paraphernalia of Turkic peoples. This would explain the stones being seen across a vast area.

6th February 2012, 12:59 AM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	I said from the beginning that the "shorter one" was choora. It is of a reasonably normal size: 17" in the scabbard. Wold love to see your example.

6th February 2012, 03:42 AM	#10
AJ1356 Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Nashville Posts: 317	The so-called apple blossom is a common motive, residents of Bukhara were perdominantly Tajik, so thier handywork would be Tajik not Uzbek. If no collector book is printed on a subject does not mean it does not exist, and is this book the same book that tells you there was an arsenal in Mazar e Sharif, that made stuff with the mosque stamp? I am trying to provide proper information for the benefit of everyone, because there are heaps of wrong information floating around. If you don't want to accept that because it is not in a book, that is your right.

6th February 2012, 03:50 AM	#11
Rick Vikingsword Staff Join Date: Nov 2004 Posts: 6,339	And we will all take a deep breath and smile at one another before we continue, yes ?