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#61 | |
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Sorry I suspect this LIKE symbol may get annoying, but, I couldn't have stated my sentiments better than David did. We will see how this turns out. Unfortunately I suspect the value (historically and monetarily) of this beautiful saber has plummeted. Jeff |
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#62 | |
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Jeff and dear all, I've just remove mellowed rust after 3-4 weeks of soaking in the distilled water. Blade is not cleaned out to shiny naked metal (as it might seem from the photographs). I've leave some rust in the deep caverns. Next step is process the blade in the tannin solution. Regards, Evgeny P.S. I've got another saber from Moscow region (Mozhaysk). Polish or Russian I'm not sure. Will be glad to get any advises from you how to deal with it. |
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#63 | |
Lead Moderator European Armoury
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#64 | |
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Salaams Evgeny_K~ Ok I sympathise because excavated metalwork is always a headache to restore. I can see by the first photos that this was never going to be easy though I hope you get a good result with the next phase...Just getting to the point of stabilising the rust will be a considerable step. Best of luck ya. Regarding your next sword in similar condition ... This looks like another mission impossible ! What is tannin solution please ? I have not heard of it... I will search the web... is this acidic? How long to soak?.. can we see an after photograph please? Good luck !! ...ah wait I have searched the best library.. our own Forum search and now I understand tannin solution... very interesting indeed... Forum search Tannin Solution !!! ![]() Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 30th January 2012 at 01:40 PM. |
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#65 | |
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Hi Evgeny, My personal opinion is "Less is More". This is a 400-500 year old weapon it should not look new. I know the temptation of using modern power tools, sandblasters, and chemicals, I have tried all of them on old rusty tools as experiments, the results have been less than optimal. You clearly have some knowledge of restoration, but I would implore you not to experiment with these sabers, they are too valuable (even in artifact condition). All the Best Jeff |
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#66 | |
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What he said... ![]() |
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#67 | |
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Salaams David~ Fair enough except that in their "as found" (excavated condition) they were being devoured by active rust. By expertly removing the salt and deactivating the rust and giving the tannin a shot i think it is salvageable and worth then rebuilding the hilt around. I can't see another alternative. It is difficult to take the rust off a little bit... Less is more we all know that but this is a basket case scenario... You either give it a go or its smeared in grease and left.. no one likes to do that especially when theres a chance to rebuild a hilt around a salvaged blade... I say give it a good try; lets see the final result but don't expect miracles in the blade area. ![]() Meanwhile and perhaps more importantly our library of "restoration knowledge" is being added to... Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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#68 |
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#69 | |
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#70 | |
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Previously posted photos were taken a year before I got this saber. Metal loss is a result of the corrosion effect. |
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#71 |
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[QUOTE=David]Ibrahim, i would love for you to point out where exactly i ever stated that it was a bad idea to stabilize the rust so that no further deterioration could take place.
Salaams David~ I can't because you didn't. Regards Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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#72 | |
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scabbard mounts in progress: before (too much rusted) |
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#73 |
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after (reactivation of the ferric oxide in the carbon environment):
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#74 | |
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Salaams Evgeny_K ~ I have to say that this is pioneering work ! Considering the state the items were in when you started I think that is an excellent result. I hope the rest of the restoration goes as well. Most museums wouldn't touch this because understandably the sword was on its last legs... Most of us would have given this sword the wax protection and left it at that... Perhaps we have here a viable resusitation technique on what many would have said was a lost cause... This is highly specialised work. Best of luck Evgeny_K. Very impressive.. ![]() Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. |
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#75 | |
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Thank you, Ibrahiim! It's not my merit ![]() I've asked to help me a person who is engaged in this kind of restoration. Here is another example of his work (excavated rifle flint lock): before: Last edited by Evgeny_K; 27th March 2012 at 07:17 PM. |
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#76 |
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after:
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#77 |
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Some electric welding works (I don't use it for the sabers!)...
Last edited by Evgeny_K; 27th March 2012 at 07:11 PM. |
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#78 |
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#79 |
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Guys, Don't freak out too much on Evgeny here.
Iron/Steel objects are very challenging. In a conservation lab setting, washing to remove the different chlorides and mechanical cleaning are very typical. The only other thing you really can do is then shield the artifact in an argon-filled bag or container. Unfortunately, the current research doesn't seem to favor the tannin approach. Slapping some oil and 000 steel wool on a blade doesn't 'deactivate' corrosion. It's not so clear cut as that, and with blades this corroded the deep imbedded chlorides and other compounds will blister out as they keep working down. So, not arguing for or against, but just realize that what Evgeny is doing is not too far off for current recommended treatment of such items. |
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#80 |
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of course, now seeing the electrical welding post, that's totally another matter, and moves beyond any definition of 'conservation'
Regards, Garrett |
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#81 | |
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Salaams G. McCormack ~For normal mortals (like me), naturally, this technique carries the addendum " Dont try this at home ! " My own level of expertise I would have had to stop at the point of rust removal /neutralisation. I believe that museum restoration departments went for ultra sound treatment at one point but found it too aggressive and I wonder if this is a better solution. I've never seen the carbon treatment nor the electric weld technique before though both appear very viable. This is a new level. The before and after shots of the striker group are amazing. I wonder what the finished sword will look like? Excellent detail Evgeny_K thank you for posting. Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 29th March 2012 at 03:07 PM. |
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#82 | |
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Hello Ibrahiim! You'll see it soon. |
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#83 | |
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Here is the sword... |
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#84 | |
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I would appreciate for any help in identifying this mark ![]() |
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#85 |
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Salaams Evgeny_K ~ I am very impressed with the result so far. This is highly specialised and advanced stuff... Now you have the blade stabilized and carbonized (will that prevent rust or is there a danger of rust continuing under the carbon? ) What is your programme of restoration for hilt and scabbard. Astonishing results so far...
I was searching for associated material and discovered a distant link to an important resource in the Forum Library on the Ethnographic that can be found by typing into search Polska szabla husarska by Wolviex . Perhaps this can be brought onto the European for perusal please? Thank you. ![]() Regards, Ibrahiim al Balooshi. ps The stamp is upside down I think. Last edited by Ibrahiim al Balooshi; 17th April 2012 at 09:39 AM. |
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#86 | |
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Hello Ibrahiim, It is not a carbonization process. When heating rusted metal in the pure carbon (charcoal) without access of oxygen occurs redox reaction (recovery of the metal from the oxide). |
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#87 |
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Evgeny,
Great job. Let's not forget the way this saber looked like when it came to you: it was a deformed lump of rusty metal. No amount of "gentle" cleaning would have recovered even a trace of what it was supposed to be, or prevent any further degradation. To be honest: the historic and artistic value of this ( or any other) sword pales in comparison to Sistine Chapel. http://msopal29.myweb.uga.edu/BeforeandAfter.html If works of Michelangelo and Botticelli could be aggressively restored and conserved, a similar approach to a sword is fully justified. |
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#88 | |
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![]() http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ooH1P...0tqoEJXeOKw3E= |
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#89 |
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I have already expressed my view on the extent of restoration.
Now, the question. Heating rusted metal as described is obviously fine for the rust. But what about the metal hardening and tempering? Also, the blade acquired a dull, dead sheen. Is it correctable? |
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#90 | |
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