Question About SEA Armor

KrisKross · 16th August 2005, 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

Come to think of it, Egerton says something about Burmese armor. I'll have to check that.

That would be awesome if you could get me some quotes on that topic. Info about Burmese armor is so scarce...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mabagani

If you could find my old site, there are pics of three different armor from the southern Philipppines chain mail and horn plates, metal plates, and hardened leather. Stone's book also shows a forth type of padded cloth. Re:double weapons, they can be used with or without armor depending on the skill of the combatant.

Could you give me the site URL? Maybe Google still has it cached or something. I've only been able to find one solid pic of Moro armor, and one could easily claim that it is South Central Asia (India/Kashmiri) rather than Filipino (it probably spread from India through SEA, after all).

Could you point me to a book, article, or website where double weapon use in (or against) armor is featured/touted/described (etc.) in an historical context? Even when speaking about single weapon use, text on its application or relationship with armor is hard to come by, even in a European context.

Thanks for your replies, everyone...

Bill · 16th August 2005, 09:29 PM

there is some pics of Moro armor here: http://www.eriksedge.com/kampilanindex.html & http://www.eriksedge.com/PH116.html

Aqtai · 16th August 2005, 09:40 PM

I have seen Phillipino mail and plate armour in Museums and books. It looks strikingly like Iranian and Indian mail and plate armours, which suggests to me that they might have copied armour sold to them by Iranian or Indian merchants. I have also read however that Phillipino mail is butted not rivetted, which would greatly reduce it's effectiveness.

Spunjer · 16th August 2005, 09:40 PM

KrissKross,
welcome. hope these links helps you. what style do you practice anyway?

http://home.pacbell.net/sika/collection.html

http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/engar/?

enjoy and good luck...

KrisKross · 16th August 2005, 10:21 PM

That was all extremely useful, thanks.

I don't think it's likely to happen, but a picture of a Moro (or Burmese/Thai/Indonesian/Malaysian) warrior in armor holding two weapons would clinch my case at this point. I just find it hard to believe that people would develop two-weapon fighting (with all its complexities) in an environment including armor without assuming (anecdotally) that it would work against that armor. And even so, I know for a fact that peoples who developed two-weapon fighting also used shields, so someone must have thought you could use two weapons effectively against shields.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spunjer

what style do you practice anyway?

Inosanto/LaCoste Blend. Most people call it "Kali" since Filipinos call their art Escrima, and the LaCoste Blend is mostly an American fusion of traditional Escrima styles and some new ideas. The word "Kali" is used mostly in North America, where Inosanto/LaCoste is very common among the various styles. Most of the "new ideas" are a mix of other masters' methods beyond Johnny LaCoste's teachings, rather than spontaneous inventions. It is sometimes called JKD/Kali, because most schools teach Jeet Kune Do along side it, blending the two together.

This is a good explanation: http://www.pamausa.com/Pages/kali.html

This is not my school, and Tucci calls it the "Inosanto Method," but it is the same thing...

Spunjer · 16th August 2005, 10:49 PM

yo kriss, check your pm...

fearn · 16th August 2005, 11:56 PM

Hi Kriss,

There's one other thing about double-weapon fighting: the length of the weapons. Chinese double jians are typically shorter than single-jians, and that's also apparently the case with the "case of rapiers" (two rapiers instead of rapier and main gauche).

There are a couple (well, three) problems with using two long weapons. One is that they can snag each other--your opponent can force one blade to foul the other, for instance. A bigger problem is that you're horribly exposed on the inside. If someone slips inside your guard, what are you going to hit him with? If you have a dagger in your off hand, this isn't a problem, but with two long swords, you're in trouble. That's apparently why the double rapier technique never took off the way rapier and main gauche, or buckler, or cloak did.

A third problem, when dealing with armor, is that one hand may simply not be enough to power the weapon through the armor. In that case (for instance, with a katana), you're sacrificing power for complexity, but if none of your attacks cause damage, you're in trouble.

I'd point out that double short swords (or knives) are quite a bit more common, from wing chun to escrima and kali. I'd also point out that double-wakizashi techniques still exist, and they didn't come from Musashi's lineage.

F

KrisKross · 17th August 2005, 12:29 AM

Got it, Spunjer

Fearn, your arguments make sense. Although I wasn't so much concerned with what type of weapon one used in the "off hand." I personally prefer the dagger. Double short swords would split the difference, I guess. I've seen good work done with a double barong, for instance.

Power is less of a problem with plate armor, since you won't get through it with a strong arm swing anyway, really (although you can pierce it with bracing and leverage, as with a heavy lance). I mean, what are the chances you'd simply run a man through with a sword while they were wearing a full plate curass? It was mainly a problem of bashing the knight into unconsciousness so you could finish him, I hear.

Chain and leather can be pierced with a dagger, though, and I can see the importance of the dagger in my own art. A one-handed swing from a short sword might hurt but not really pierce much armor, but it can set up a killing blow with a dagger. Sneaking a blade into an armpit isn't really that hard, in my experience.

Battara · 17th August 2005, 01:54 AM

I know that in Italy, double sword is a very unique form of fighting. The trouble is one had to be very adept and an advanced fighter to use it instead of a shield. Thus it was not very widespread and only expert swordsmen could employ such techniques. I have actually seen it in action at an SCA event years ago, and it looked almost identical to FMA Sinawali! I was very impressed. He was fighting against a shield holder and won!

He was the only one who used it and was quite advanced in his training.

16th August 2005, 09:29 PM	#2
Bill Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Chicago area Posts: 327	there is some pics of Moro armor here: http://www.eriksedge.com/kampilanindex.html & http://www.eriksedge.com/PH116.html

16th August 2005, 09:40 PM	#3
Aqtai Member Join Date: May 2005 Location: Merseyside, UK Posts: 222	I have seen Phillipino mail and plate armour in Museums and books. It looks strikingly like Iranian and Indian mail and plate armours, which suggests to me that they might have copied armour sold to them by Iranian or Indian merchants. I have also read however that Phillipino mail is butted not rivetted, which would greatly reduce it's effectiveness.

16th August 2005, 09:40 PM	#4
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	KrissKross, welcome. hope these links helps you. what style do you practice anyway? http://home.pacbell.net/sika/collection.html http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/engar/? enjoy and good luck...

16th August 2005, 10:49 PM	#6
Spunjer Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Witness Protection Program Posts: 1,730	yo kriss, check your pm...

16th August 2005, 11:56 PM	#7
fearn Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Posts: 1,247	Hi Kriss, There's one other thing about double-weapon fighting: the length of the weapons. Chinese double jians are typically shorter than single-jians, and that's also apparently the case with the "case of rapiers" (two rapiers instead of rapier and main gauche). There are a couple (well, three) problems with using two long weapons. One is that they can snag each other--your opponent can force one blade to foul the other, for instance. A bigger problem is that you're horribly exposed on the inside. If someone slips inside your guard, what are you going to hit him with? If you have a dagger in your off hand, this isn't a problem, but with two long swords, you're in trouble. That's apparently why the double rapier technique never took off the way rapier and main gauche, or buckler, or cloak did. A third problem, when dealing with armor, is that one hand may simply not be enough to power the weapon through the armor. In that case (for instance, with a katana), you're sacrificing power for complexity, but if none of your attacks cause damage, you're in trouble. I'd point out that double short swords (or knives) are quite a bit more common, from wing chun to escrima and kali. I'd also point out that double-wakizashi techniques still exist, and they didn't come from Musashi's lineage. F

17th August 2005, 12:29 AM	#8
KrisKross Member Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 8	Got it, Spunjer Fearn, your arguments make sense. Although I wasn't so much concerned with what type of weapon one used in the "off hand." I personally prefer the dagger. Double short swords would split the difference, I guess. I've seen good work done with a double barong, for instance. Power is less of a problem with plate armor, since you won't get through it with a strong arm swing anyway, really (although you can pierce it with bracing and leverage, as with a heavy lance). I mean, what are the chances you'd simply run a man through with a sword while they were wearing a full plate curass? It was mainly a problem of bashing the knight into unconsciousness so you could finish him, I hear. Chain and leather can be pierced with a dagger, though, and I can see the importance of the dagger in my own art. A one-handed swing from a short sword might hurt but not really pierce much armor, but it can set up a killing blow with a dagger. Sneaking a blade into an armpit isn't really that hard, in my experience.

17th August 2005, 01:54 AM	#9
Battara EAAF Staff Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 7,280	I know that in Italy, double sword is a very unique form of fighting. The trouble is one had to be very adept and an advanced fighter to use it instead of a shield. Thus it was not very widespread and only expert swordsmen could employ such techniques. I have actually seen it in action at an SCA event years ago, and it looked almost identical to FMA Sinawali! I was very impressed. He was fighting against a shield holder and won! He was the only one who used it and was quite advanced in his training.