Question About SEA Armor

[rahman]

I have read that the standard court dress in Thailand was a sword (daab) and keris, which makes me wonder if there is or was a sword-and-keris technique.

Mark

I would love to get the source of your info. For some time now, I have been struggling with several references in Sejarah Melayu (The Malay Annals) and Hikayat Hang Tuah about the use of the keris panjang. These ancient classics did not refer to the keris panjang as an executioner's sword but as a slashing weapon. Hang Tuah used keris panjang to parang (slash) at a mob of 100 Majapahit warriors.

It is quite possible that this keris panjang may have been a version of the daab, with the keris as a close-quarter weapon. Interestingly, the personal keris slipped into the waistband is variously called the keris pendua (the second of a pair) or a keris pandak (pendek - short?).

I'm developing a nagging suspicion that the Malay keris as we know it today may be post-1511, after the Portugeuse invasion and the fall of Malacca.

[KrisKross]

Thanks everyone so much for your interest in my question. This is helping me.

Let's take this one at a time:

Originally Posted by Mark

In Burma and Thailand the common soldier (who was a levy soldier) went essentially unarmored, and the more affluent wore a "war coat," which as near as I can tell was of heavy or padded silk, and a leather "war hat" which looked a lot like something Jimmy Buffet might be wearing down in Margaritaville. I have a scan of an old catalogue that shows a war coat and war hat, and if no one else posts it in the meantime I will put it up this evening from home.

That would be hugely helpful. There seems to be so little in the way of info on SEA armor. I know they never developed plate, but I find it hard to believe no one ever used any armor at all along with two-weapon fighting styles. Armor is so common going from India and radiating out to almost everywhere else in the world (even if one speaks of Maori "war girdles" or Jaguar Knight padded coats). I can't believe the Burmese didn't have it.

Originally Posted by Bill

the Moro armor is very close to Bugis armor of early Celebes/Sulawesi.

Yes, it did help. I didn't know that. My opponents seem to think that no Filipinos had armor, which (he believes) led to them creating double-weapon fighting systems. The implication is that two weapons against armor isn't at all effective. I find that hard to believe.

Originally Posted by fearrn

I'd also pitch in Stone's Glossary of the Construction, Decoration and Use of Arms and Armour and Draeger's Weapons and Fighting Systems of Indonesia as books to check out for SEA armor.

I have the second book, but never heard of the first one. Draeger is very thurough, but I didn't see much (maybe not any) in the way of actual armor. However, there are some shields in there.

Originally Posted by fearn

So far as double weapon use goes, we can also point to European (case of rapiers, sword and dagger, rapier and main gauche), Japanese (Miyamoto Musashi et al), Chinese, Korean, even Native American (tomahawk and knife) examples, although we'd have to eliminate the Amerinds if you meant two of the same kind of weapon. Or not. We could easily add all of SEA and Okinawa to the double weapons list, and probably pop in a few Roman gladiators if we wanted to go that far. Basically, it's an idea that a lot of people have tried and a few have specialized in.

I seem to remember that the Europeans used long swords along with daggers sometimes. I'm not talking about rapiers here, either. Would that have been without armor only?

In trying to support my ideas on two-weapon fighting, mainly that two weapons were occasionally better than one weapon, I cited Musashi, and was greeted with this response:

Thus it is clear that this guy was ELITE, VERY ELITE. Also note that it took him many years to create this style of his and perfect it. However after his death in 1645 not one of his pupils (some having been with him for many years) had the ability to fully understand and execute his style and, even with his two publications, could not do so after several years of study - Niten Ichi-Ryu died out after that. Thus this again points to the need fro a very special person to master this.

With that – your support and theory of historical superiority of TWF is not validated – the opposite is true. Musashi was not a major player in the shaping of tactics for his nation at all; as said; the guy was actually a Ronin; an outcast and a mercenary. This is not to mention there are just a few years of prior Japanese warrior and Samurai fighting history prior to his birth that did not utilize his methods.

This was after I had said: "If you know what your a doing, killing someone who only has one weapon becomes much easier, as does preventing yourself from being killed, than if you only had one weapon. As for the wakazashi, the author of the Book of Five Rings seems to agree with me on this."

I do not believe there is a "superior" style. Tactical and strategic dominance is a creature of context. I had said earlier that, given the right context, two weapons could be as good as one and a shield. You need less training with a shield, but in a warrior culture, one is apt to follow local martial custom from an early age, which negates the problem of long training. The Filipinos are a prime example. I started learning two weapon fighting from day one in class, and it didn't really seem that hard to me (nor am I unique in that opinion).

Originally Posted by rahman

I would love to get the source of your info.

Ditto, although for different reasons.

[Mark]

Originally Posted by rahman

I would love to get the source of your info.

What, and ruin my mystique of being all-knowing (or alternatively of just plain making stuff up)? OK, but unfortunately the source of info on the keris/dha combination is from an out-of-print museum publication. I'll pull some quotes and a cite, though. Come to think of it, Egerton says something about Burmese armor. I'll have to check that.

[Rick]

Hi K.K. ,

The Main Gauche was used in conjunction with the Rapier in unarmored combat ; often in duels .

[MABAGANI]

If you could find my old site, there are pics of three different armor from the southern Philipppines chain mail and horn plates, metal plates, and hardened leather. Stone's book also shows a forth type of padded cloth. Re:double weapons, they can be used with or without armor depending on the skill of the combatant.

[KrisKross]

Originally Posted by Mark Bowditch

Come to think of it, Egerton says something about Burmese armor. I'll have to check that.

That would be awesome if you could get me some quotes on that topic. Info about Burmese armor is so scarce...

Originally Posted by Mabagani

If you could find my old site, there are pics of three different armor from the southern Philipppines chain mail and horn plates, metal plates, and hardened leather. Stone's book also shows a forth type of padded cloth. Re:double weapons, they can be used with or without armor depending on the skill of the combatant.

Could you give me the site URL? Maybe Google still has it cached or something. I've only been able to find one solid pic of Moro armor, and one could easily claim that it is South Central Asia (India/Kashmiri) rather than Filipino (it probably spread from India through SEA, after all).

Could you point me to a book, article, or website where double weapon use in (or against) armor is featured/touted/described (etc.) in an historical context? Even when speaking about single weapon use, text on its application or relationship with armor is hard to come by, even in a European context.

Thanks for your replies, everyone...

[Bill]

there is some pics of Moro armor here: http://www.eriksedge.com/kampilanindex.html & http://www.eriksedge.com/PH116.html

[Aqtai]

I have seen Phillipino mail and plate armour in Museums and books. It looks strikingly like Iranian and Indian mail and plate armours, which suggests to me that they might have copied armour sold to them by Iranian or Indian merchants. I have also read however that Phillipino mail is butted not rivetted, which would greatly reduce it's effectiveness.

[Spunjer]

KrissKross,
welcome. hope these links helps you. what style do you practice anyway?


http://home.pacbell.net/sika/collection.html


http://photobucket.com/albums/v672/engar/?

enjoy and good luck...

[KrisKross]

That was all extremely useful, thanks.

I don't think it's likely to happen, but a picture of a Moro (or Burmese/Thai/Indonesian/Malaysian) warrior in armor holding two weapons would clinch my case at this point. I just find it hard to believe that people would develop two-weapon fighting (with all its complexities) in an environment including armor without assuming (anecdotally) that it would work against that armor. And even so, I know for a fact that peoples who developed two-weapon fighting also used shields, so someone must have thought you could use two weapons effectively against shields.

Originally Posted by Spunjer

what style do you practice anyway?

Inosanto/LaCoste Blend. Most people call it "Kali" since Filipinos call their art Escrima, and the LaCoste Blend is mostly an American fusion of traditional Escrima styles and some new ideas. The word "Kali" is used mostly in North America, where Inosanto/LaCoste is very common among the various styles. Most of the "new ideas" are a mix of other masters' methods beyond Johnny LaCoste's teachings, rather than spontaneous inventions. It is sometimes called JKD/Kali, because most schools teach Jeet Kune Do along side it, blending the two together.

This is a good explanation: http://www.pamausa.com/Pages/kali.html

This is not my school, and Tucci calls it the "Inosanto Method," but it is the same thing...