Celebes keris?

[David]

Originally Posted by Harley

Thank you for your explanation, i agree with almost everything you've said.
What i don't understand is that you don't find the old (Bali) sheath nicely made.
I can understand that was a mix of styles, and i was ugly , but it was made properly, maybe my bad photo's has something to do with that.

Harley, i suggest that you go back to that Bali keris thread and re-read some of the comments. IMHO that sheath is not "properly" made nor carved with any particular finesse or understanding of the sesrengentan form it was trying to emulate. As Alan pointed out in post #10 in that thread it well may have been made in Bali and then altered in Jawa (pendok), but not by anyone with any particular knowledge of this form or style. I am therefore not convinced that it was a sheath that anyone would have proudly displayed in public in any real cultural setting. That is the difference in my mind.

[Harley]

Hi David,

I know that you're not the only one with this opinion, and as i said, it's a real ugly design, and i also agree that it does not come in the near of a sesrengentan, but we think different of the finesse of that sheath.
There was a time i was tattooing, and I've seen my share of ugly tattoos designs, done without any knowledge or other, but still i could appreciate it if the lines are good, depth, shadow, etc, so thats what i am trying so say.
I would not be ashamed I've had made that sheath(I don't have ), but only regarding the finesse, not the design.

regards,
Ben

[David]

Originally Posted by Harley

I know that you're not the only one with this opinion, and as i said, it's a real ugly design, and i also agree that it does not come in the near of a sesrengentan, but we think different of the finesse of that sheath.
There was a time i was tattooing, and I've seen my share of ugly tattoos designs, done without any knowledge or other, but still i could appreciate it if the lines are good, depth, shadow, etc, so thats what i am trying so say.
I would not be ashamed I've had made that sheath(I don't have ), but only regarding the finesse, not the design.

Ben, I don't think we can apply the same standards of tattooing to the keris. Styles are a bit more specific, less freeform. At least in the general world of Western tattooing. However, if we were examining tradition Maori tattoo design, maintaining exacting and specific form of line and design might be a bit more important from a cultural standpoint. The sheath of your Bali keris looks well constructed for sure, but the carving shows little understanding of the line and form of the sheath form it is attempting to be. That is what i mean by finesse, not whether or not the carver knows how to use his tools. From what i can see in your own attempts to create a gayaman style sheath (albeit, a simpler form), you have a far greater ability to observe and copy form than the carver of this sheath did.

[Harley]

Originally Posted by David

The sheath of your Bali keris looks well constructed for sure, but the carving shows little understanding of the line and form of the sheath form it is attempting to be. That is what i mean by finesse, not whether or not the carver knows how to use his tools. From what i can see in your own attempts to create a gayaman style sheath (albeit, a simpler form), you have a far greater ability to observe and copy form than the carver of this sheath did.

Hi David,

It was not my meaning to compare tattooing and keris, but more to try an give a example what i meant.
And there is the misunderstanding , when i now read what you have written, (well constructed) the word i used was finesse, but we mean the same thing!
It sometimes difficult to find the right words David, i try to, but it don't always goes that way.
I am not so sure about that David, but thanks for the compliment.

regards,
Ben

P.S. David i sent you yesterday a PM, didn't you get it?

[David]

Originally Posted by Harley

P.S. David i sent you yesterday a PM, didn't you get it?

Yes i did...i thought i responded...will check.