Wilah nr2 hope you can help with identification

PenangsangII · 12th January 2012, 02:13 AM

I think Cirebon's so-called keris is unique in its own way. The mix of various cultures - Sunda, Jawanese, Malay, Makassar, Bugis, Sumatra, Arab, Chinese etc has made the keris culture in Cirebon as such, whilst Mataram remains the center of Jawanese culture.

To think of it again, IMHO even the great Majapahit empire also consisted of a lot of cultures as they are more open, similarly Demak and to certain level Cirebon. Mataram since its inception wanted to be in seclusion to avoid outside influences. this is understandable as Panembahan Senopati came from a family of "no honor" - he was just a descendant of a peasant who pretended to be of Majapahit linage - this is the way Jawanese outside Indonesia see it.

David · 12th January 2012, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PenangsangII

Mataram since its inception wanted to be in seclusion to avoid outside influences. this is understandable as Panembahan Senopati came from a family of "no honor" - he was just a descendant of a peasant who pretended to be of Majapahit linage - this is the way Jawanese outside Indonesia see it.

"Honor" can certainly be a matter of perspective. In the back-stabbing world of power and royal courts i'm not convinced it is always possible to establish "honor". That said, are you truly capable of speaking for the perspective of all Jawanese living outside Indonesia?

A. G. Maisey · 12th January 2012, 04:46 AM

Actually David, Penangsang is pretty right about Senopati.

He was the biggest landholder in the district, married into royalty, then refused to pay tribute to Pajang. He had no royal blood, and in fact the claim of descent from Majapahit for the House of Mataram rests in the female line, not the male line.

When I read this period of Javanese history, it strikes me as sounding like a Javanese parallel to the history of the Mafia in modern USA. Sutawijaya (Senopati) was a boss, who decided that he wanted to become "Boss of the Bosses", so he staged a take-over.

I don't know about the perspective of Javanese people living outside Jawa, but I do know about the founding of Mataram, and about Senopati, and Penangsang's remarks are pretty close to the mark.

From the time of Senopati right through to probably Kartosuro, the House of Mataram was dedicated to trying to prove its legitimacy.

Linguists have speculated that their efforts to prove that they were in fact royalty were responsible for the development of Modern Javanese from Old Javanese.

Prior to Mataram it appears that Old Javanese, which lacks much of the artificial construct of the multi level Modern Javanese, was in general usage, but the rulers of Mataram introduced the additional language levels of Modern Javanese to drive home to everybody that they must be respected.

Javanese history makes very good reading. Not dry at all, constant movement, and lots and lots of blood.

PenangsangII · 12th January 2012, 07:12 AM

David, forgive my crude language, by saying "outside Jawa", I was actually trying to give general perspective of the people around the Nusantara land with respect to "Jawa speaking world"

Alan, as always, your input deepens further my knowledge about keris, its culture, history, philosophy and the people themselves. I cant thank you enough.

David · 12th January 2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Actually David, Penangsang is pretty right about Senopati.

Yes Alan, i am aware of some of the history here. That was why i suggested that establishing honor in the case of the court history of Jawa is often difficult at best.

And this history is, as you say, a pretty good read with lots and lots of blood.

A. G. Maisey · 12th January 2012, 08:59 PM

Yes David, the question of "honour" is something else entirely.

A review of the "honour" of all leaders and politicians at all times and in all places will demonstrate that no matter where one should choose to look, "honour" (adherence to what is right as a conventional standard of conduct ---Oxford) is pretty thin on the ground.

In respect of Jawa in particular, Senopati was probably no worse than his predecessors, nor those who came after him.

The mighty Majapahit was the product of deceit and double-cross.
Islam destroyed Majapahit from within , son against father, and so it continues.

It is interesting to note that the recent succession of PBXIII of Surakarta was the product of one brother's supporters seizing control of the Karaton upon the passing of PBXII, and thus depriving the named heir of the throne.

"Honour"?

What is the meaning of the word?

Oxford can give us a definition, but in practice I feel that honour is seldom found.

In respect of the Islamisation of Jawa, close study of this will show that the penetration of Islam into Jawa flowed into society from two directions:- from the top down, and from the bottom up.

The princes of Majapahit were in control of trade in the ports along the north coast. As Muslim traders came to Jawa and established enclaves these Muslim traders formed a trade network, and the indigenous Javanese traders became more and more excluded. In order to ensure the continuing success of trade, these Majapahit princes converted one by one to Islam. This conversion culminated with the conversion to Islam of Brawijaya V of Majapahit, at the point of Raden Patah's sword, who was his own son, and had established Demak.

At this point in history, the Muslim influence was probably more weighted towards Gujerat, but Raden Patah himself seems to have had a Chinese mother, and it is probable that the very earliest contact of Jawa with Islam, did indeed come from Chinese traders.

At the other end of the social scale the dispossessed of Majapahit, and the landless rural workers were influenced to convert by gifts of land and support from Muslim traders who had established enclaves along the north coast. The traders would come with one trade wind, and would then wait a number of months for the wind to turn, so they could sail home again. Over time these Muslim traders established settlements, and through their wealth gained control over land. To populate this land they drew upon the dispossessed and the poor, who were given land to work in exchange for converting to Islam.

The conversion of Jawa to Islam cannot be separated from the expansion of trade.

PenangsangII · 13th January 2012, 02:01 AM

Thank you again Alan for yet another enlightening interpretation of Jawanese history.

Yes, the definition of "honor" is varied depending from where you look at things. Since Ken Arok staged a coup d'etat against Kadiri, and continuous bloodshed of keris Mpu Gandring for the Singhasari throne, then Kadiri, then Majapahit right to Demak and Mataram. The list goes on and on till Diponegoro war.

But then, from what we have been told by history books, Majapahit and Demak (including Cirebon) shared one common value. That is acceptance towards outside Jawanese culture to flourish. In fact, many influential administrators during Majapahit and Demak were not Jawanese at all. Mataram till Amangkurat era however, whilst trying to exert its legitimacy, it had to create its own Jawanese identity to the point of creating a wider difference in terms of keris as compared to Cirebon, Sumatra and the rest of the archipelago. In these places, the keris culture has not changed much since Majapahit, or even since Singhasari era. This of course is only my personal observation.

A. G. Maisey · 13th January 2012, 03:04 AM

Just to clarify a point Penangsang:- what I write on these historical topics is never my interpretation, it is simply the repetition of what can be found in any number of books written by professional historians.

On the other hand, what I may write about keris is sometimes what I have been taught, sometimes from my own observations or reasoning and research.

It is certainly true that Majapahit and the coastal political entities were not reluctant to use the skills of foreigners, being situated close to trade routes, foreigners were seemingly never in short supply in the coastal settlements.

Mataram , however, was an inland kingdom. The rulers of Mataram were very much pre-occupied with trying to demonstrate their legitimacy, but I feel that they also would not have been reluctant to employ skilled foreigners, had these people been available.

However, perhaps it is best not to try to link these matters to keris style. Mataram was preceded by Pajang, Pajang by Demak, and these are all moderately sized keris.

Some of the keris that are attributed to the western parts of Jawa are quite large, others are of normal size; Tuban is North Coast, some of its keris are enormous, but others are normal size. My own feeling is that the variation in size is related to firstly, easier availability of material in coastal locations than in the hinterland, and secondly size related to social standing of the owner. Then there is the esoteric factor, as reflected in numeric values.

12th January 2012, 07:12 AM	#4
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	David, forgive my crude language, by saying "outside Jawa", I was actually trying to give general perspective of the people around the Nusantara land with respect to "Jawa speaking world" Alan, as always, your input deepens further my knowledge about keris, its culture, history, philosophy and the people themselves. I cant thank you enough. Last edited by PenangsangII; 12th January 2012 at 07:25 AM.

12th January 2012, 02:13 AM	#1
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	I think Cirebon's so-called keris is unique in its own way. The mix of various cultures - Sunda, Jawanese, Malay, Makassar, Bugis, Sumatra, Arab, Chinese etc has made the keris culture in Cirebon as such, whilst Mataram remains the center of Jawanese culture. To think of it again, IMHO even the great Majapahit empire also consisted of a lot of cultures as they are more open, similarly Demak and to certain level Cirebon. Mataram since its inception wanted to be in seclusion to avoid outside influences. this is understandable as Panembahan Senopati came from a family of "no honor" - he was just a descendant of a peasant who pretended to be of Majapahit linage - this is the way Jawanese outside Indonesia see it.

12th January 2012, 04:46 AM	#3
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Actually David, Penangsang is pretty right about Senopati. He was the biggest landholder in the district, married into royalty, then refused to pay tribute to Pajang. He had no royal blood, and in fact the claim of descent from Majapahit for the House of Mataram rests in the female line, not the male line. When I read this period of Javanese history, it strikes me as sounding like a Javanese parallel to the history of the Mafia in modern USA. Sutawijaya (Senopati) was a boss, who decided that he wanted to become "Boss of the Bosses", so he staged a take-over. I don't know about the perspective of Javanese people living outside Jawa, but I do know about the founding of Mataram, and about Senopati, and Penangsang's remarks are pretty close to the mark. From the time of Senopati right through to probably Kartosuro, the House of Mataram was dedicated to trying to prove its legitimacy. Linguists have speculated that their efforts to prove that they were in fact royalty were responsible for the development of Modern Javanese from Old Javanese. Prior to Mataram it appears that Old Javanese, which lacks much of the artificial construct of the multi level Modern Javanese, was in general usage, but the rulers of Mataram introduced the additional language levels of Modern Javanese to drive home to everybody that they must be respected. Javanese history makes very good reading. Not dry at all, constant movement, and lots and lots of blood.

12th January 2012, 08:59 PM	#6
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Yes David, the question of "honour" is something else entirely. A review of the "honour" of all leaders and politicians at all times and in all places will demonstrate that no matter where one should choose to look, "honour" (adherence to what is right as a conventional standard of conduct ---Oxford) is pretty thin on the ground. In respect of Jawa in particular, Senopati was probably no worse than his predecessors, nor those who came after him. The mighty Majapahit was the product of deceit and double-cross. Islam destroyed Majapahit from within , son against father, and so it continues. It is interesting to note that the recent succession of PBXIII of Surakarta was the product of one brother's supporters seizing control of the Karaton upon the passing of PBXII, and thus depriving the named heir of the throne. "Honour"? What is the meaning of the word? Oxford can give us a definition, but in practice I feel that honour is seldom found. In respect of the Islamisation of Jawa, close study of this will show that the penetration of Islam into Jawa flowed into society from two directions:- from the top down, and from the bottom up. The princes of Majapahit were in control of trade in the ports along the north coast. As Muslim traders came to Jawa and established enclaves these Muslim traders formed a trade network, and the indigenous Javanese traders became more and more excluded. In order to ensure the continuing success of trade, these Majapahit princes converted one by one to Islam. This conversion culminated with the conversion to Islam of Brawijaya V of Majapahit, at the point of Raden Patah's sword, who was his own son, and had established Demak. At this point in history, the Muslim influence was probably more weighted towards Gujerat, but Raden Patah himself seems to have had a Chinese mother, and it is probable that the very earliest contact of Jawa with Islam, did indeed come from Chinese traders. At the other end of the social scale the dispossessed of Majapahit, and the landless rural workers were influenced to convert by gifts of land and support from Muslim traders who had established enclaves along the north coast. The traders would come with one trade wind, and would then wait a number of months for the wind to turn, so they could sail home again. Over time these Muslim traders established settlements, and through their wealth gained control over land. To populate this land they drew upon the dispossessed and the poor, who were given land to work in exchange for converting to Islam. The conversion of Jawa to Islam cannot be separated from the expansion of trade.

13th January 2012, 02:01 AM	#7
PenangsangII Member Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 401	Thank you again Alan for yet another enlightening interpretation of Jawanese history. Yes, the definition of "honor" is varied depending from where you look at things. Since Ken Arok staged a coup d'etat against Kadiri, and continuous bloodshed of keris Mpu Gandring for the Singhasari throne, then Kadiri, then Majapahit right to Demak and Mataram. The list goes on and on till Diponegoro war. But then, from what we have been told by history books, Majapahit and Demak (including Cirebon) shared one common value. That is acceptance towards outside Jawanese culture to flourish. In fact, many influential administrators during Majapahit and Demak were not Jawanese at all. Mataram till Amangkurat era however, whilst trying to exert its legitimacy, it had to create its own Jawanese identity to the point of creating a wider difference in terms of keris as compared to Cirebon, Sumatra and the rest of the archipelago. In these places, the keris culture has not changed much since Majapahit, or even since Singhasari era. This of course is only my personal observation.

13th January 2012, 03:04 AM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Just to clarify a point Penangsang:- what I write on these historical topics is never my interpretation, it is simply the repetition of what can be found in any number of books written by professional historians. On the other hand, what I may write about keris is sometimes what I have been taught, sometimes from my own observations or reasoning and research. It is certainly true that Majapahit and the coastal political entities were not reluctant to use the skills of foreigners, being situated close to trade routes, foreigners were seemingly never in short supply in the coastal settlements. Mataram , however, was an inland kingdom. The rulers of Mataram were very much pre-occupied with trying to demonstrate their legitimacy, but I feel that they also would not have been reluctant to employ skilled foreigners, had these people been available. However, perhaps it is best not to try to link these matters to keris style. Mataram was preceded by Pajang, Pajang by Demak, and these are all moderately sized keris. Some of the keris that are attributed to the western parts of Jawa are quite large, others are of normal size; Tuban is North Coast, some of its keris are enormous, but others are normal size. My own feeling is that the variation in size is related to firstly, easier availability of material in coastal locations than in the hinterland, and secondly size related to social standing of the owner. Then there is the esoteric factor, as reflected in numeric values.