Kattara for comments

[Lew]

Gentlemen

Since there is no real proof that the European style of sword and buckler evolved from Omani style can we just conclude that they evolved separately from each other and leave it at that? It seems to me that that this type of fighting system Was designed with a great deal of strategic thought and basic common sense by both cultures which often used in duels as a way to settle various personal desputes. In my opinion both cultures developed these systems out of necessity in order to deal certain aspects of there warrior based societies.

[Atlantia]

Thought you might be interested in the following.
A relic Kattara showing how the familiar short tang of the 'Kaskara' type trade blade is extended to the Omani block pommel.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

I answer Atlantia below...Shukran

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Atlantia

Thought you might be interested in the following.
A relic Kattara showing how the familiar short tang of the 'Kaskara' type trade blade is extended to the Omani block pommel.

Salaams Atlantia, We started out on this thread (Kattara for Comment) with the wrong terminology since during the discussion it has been proven that the straight sword is the Sayf and the curved is the Kattara therefor we are looking at a Sayf... and it is very interesting as it is clearly an old version... and as you say a Kaskara conversion. I suppose its a Kaskara- Sayf !
This is a most interesting morph/conversion and we assume it would have been tooled up with an Omani long hilt. I have no idea how to conclude its trade blade provenance or if it is locally made? I think that what we have here, however interesting, is only a converted hilt; no more no less.

I can imagine a Sayf or Kaskara on the edge of the Omani periphery being converted to Sayf, like your example... That is entirely plausible. I would, however, have expected a trail of Omani long Sayf to be scattered down the supply route if they came via the Red Sea or via Africa in great numbers but there are, apparently, none.

Certain publications state the Omani Trade Blade provenance (though I believe they have compounded their error in continuing to copy that mistake) however none of the European people (visitors to Oman) quoted in this thread #164 nor the advisor to government affairs in Zanzibar around 1900(W. H. INGRAMS who was an official advisor to the British governor) nor any mention in "British/French relations in the Indian Ocean" By Dr Sheikh Sultan al Qassimi" which focusses on Muscat, India and Zanzibar spanning the supposed time of the European Trade Blade's appearance..make any reference to European Trade Blades for Oman. No proof exists of blades coming from India, Persia, Sri Lanka, or Yemen despite the older blade carrying the name of Sayf Yamani.
Proof exists of local Omani manufacture though none for imported blades. Not yet.

This is an excellent addition to the thread and is in many ways the essence of what we are looking at ..."The European Trade Blade conundrum".

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[fernando]

These stone sculptures abound in Portugal. At least some thirty of these statues were found in various places, some of them with epigraphic texts. They represent Galaico Lusitanian warriors. Estraban (63-24 BC) writes about the Lusitanians, mentioning that it was said that they were good ambushers and track followers, using shields two feet wide, of concave shape and straped to the body, having no handles... and that these were used together with a dagger or a gladius.

.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

These stone sculptures abound in Portugal. At least some thirty of these statues were found in various places, some of them with epigraphic texts. They represent Galaico Lusitanian warriors. Estraban (63-24 BC) writes about the Lusitanians, mentioning that it was said that they were good ambushers and track followers, using shields two feet wide, of concave shape and straped to the body, having no handles... and that these were used together with a dagger or a gladius.

.

Salaams fernando ~ I had no idea that the Portuguese were originally Celtic. I note that they were "Romanised" in the second century and wondered if their weapon systems carried on or were superceded by the Roman. I think the Greek short sword is likely to be responsible for the transmission via the Abassids to this peninsula...Oman...via the Abassid garrisoned and fighting here and because the Abbasids were obsessed with everything Greek. Thank you for your input, which is, as always, thought provoking and interesting.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

The Straight Omani Sayf.

Salaams all, I have not yet seen a single straight Omani Sayf with a European mark on it save one with a fake running wolf mark.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Please delete. Was answered above.

[fernando]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... I had no idea that the Portuguese were originally Celtic. ...

So you never wondered how we have some regions where they play the bagpipe

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... I note that they were "Romanised" in the second century ...

Did you say "Romanized" or "Omanized" ? ... just a joke
Quite a few folks, since Naenderthal and followed by Modern man, stood in the queue to leave their ADN in the Peninsula ... some more to the South, others more to the North and even others by the Coast, like the Phoenitians in Balsa, now called Tavira, in Southern Portugal.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... and wondered if their weapon systems carried on or were superceded by the Roman.

The usual swaps, as always happens when a people crosses with another. One that became quite famous was what the Romans admired and called Gladius Hispaniensis (at the time they named the whole Peninsula as Hispania). This was the so called Falcata Iberica (Ensis Flacatus); its eficiency in combat and its temper were so good that it took the Romans to reinforce their shield rims and body armour, during the second Punic wars and later conquest of Hispania. It is highly probable that their Gladius had its later structure and form influenced by this Iberian sword.
I am too lazy to search what weaponry we might have copied from the Romans, besides their influence in all other fields ... house roof tiles, roads, aqueducts, you name it. [/QUOTE]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... I think the Greek short sword is likely to be responsible for the transmission via the Abassids to this peninsula ...

If you are referring to the kopis, such actually wasn't brought over as, swords of this (sickle) type, were developed in various regions by local initiative, as also happened with the Nepalese Kukri.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... the Abbasids were obsessed with everything Greek...

The Arabs only came around by the 8th century, after another long queue, starting by the Romans and, after their decadence, a series of Germanic branches, Suevos, Vandals and lately the Visigods.
But naturally we adopted some of their weapon shapes and possible entire models. Moor cavalry performance and weapon resources were one of the best. In the other fields, i wonder if their influence was even greater than that of the Romans ... Agriculture, Irrigation, Fruit variety, Medicine, Poetry, to name a few.

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

... Thank you for your input...

Nothing to thank for. My post was only a small addition to what was said by Ariel and Lew in that, parrying devices (shields, bucklers) were used by all men during all time, each one according to their intuition.

Sorry guys, for the extensive fait divers ... and for delocalizing a bit the epicenter of the topic .

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by fernando

So you never wondered how we have some regions where they play the bagpipe


Did you say "Romanized" or "Omanized" ? ... just a joke
Quite a few folks, since Naenderthal and followed by Modern man, stood in the queue to leave their ADN in the Peninsula ... some more to the South, others more to the North and even others by the Coast, like the Phoenitians in Balsa, now called Tavira, in Southern Portugal.


The usual swaps, as always happens when a people crosses with another. One that became quite famous was what the Romans admired and called Gladius Hispaniensis (at the time they named the whole Peninsula as Hispania). This was the so called Falcata Iberica (Ensis Flacatus); its eficiency in combat and its temper were so good that it took the Romans to reinforce their shield rims and body armour, during the second Punic wars and later conquest of Hispania. It is highly probable that their Gladius had its later structure and form influenced by this Iberian sword.
I am too lazy to search what weaponry we might have copied from the Romans, besides their influence in all other fields ... house roof tiles, roads, aqueducts, you name it.


If you are referring to the kopis, such actually wasn't brought over as, swords of this (sickle) type, were developed in various regions by local initiative, as also happened with the Nepalese Kukri.


The Arabs only came around by the 8th century, after another long queue, starting by the Romans and, after their decadence, a series of Germanic branches, Suevos, Vandals and lately the Visigods.
But naturally we adopted some of their weapon shapes and possible entire models. Moor cavalry performance and weapon resources were one of the best. In the other fields, i wonder if their influence was even greater than that of the Romans ... Agriculture, Irrigation, Fruit variety, Medicine, Poetry, to name a few.


Nothing to thank for. My post was only a small addition to what was said by Ariel and Lew in that, parrying devices (shields, bucklers) were used by all men during all time, each one according to their intuition.

Sorry guys, for the extensive fait divers ... and for delocalizing a bit the epicenter of the topic .

Salaams Fernando,
Once again we are endebted for this interesting excursion, however, as Lew and I have both indicated; the Terrs and Sayf insofar as technology transfer is concerned is a bridge too far at this time.
Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Lew

Gentlemen

Since there is no real proof that the European style of sword and buckler evolved from Omani style can we just conclude that they evolved separately from each other and leave it at that? It seems to me that that this type of fighting system Was designed with a great deal of strategic thought and basic common sense by both cultures which often used in duels as a way to settle various personal desputes. In my opinion both cultures developed these systems out of necessity in order to deal certain aspects of there warrior based societies.

Salaams Lew,
For now since we are without precise proof of technology transfer from East to West, I think it wise to leave the facts so far discussed on Forum record and with the proviso that should further evidence arise it can be debated afresh.

Bucklers and Swords (Terrs wa Sayf) are inherent in the study of Omani Arms as they were in use against the Abbasids in the 8th Century A.D. and continue today in the traditional "Omani Funun".

Notwithstanding that; the thread develops quite alarmingly with the discovery of a significant Algerian bladestamp mark on what was considered as a Saudia or Yemeni Sayf.

On the table we also have an interesting peripheral "Kaskara-Sayf" from Atlantia.

The main thrust of the discussion, however, turns toward the dilemma of the (Omani) European Trade Blade. Fact or fiction?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

The main thrust of the discussion, however, turns toward the dilemma of the (Omani) European Trade Blade. Fact or fiction?

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

I've previously posted a few examples with blades bearing the running wolf of Passau and later Solingen...

Here, again, one of the more compelling examples. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...is-a-good-deal

Keep in mind what I have access to is simply what is online via Google or similar, there are many swords held in private collections around the world by individuals who may have never released photographs online. Chances are there are many more.

Even if some of the wolf marks are local copies, you have to account for where the idea to use the mark came from. Whether period travelers and Europeans present in the area noted it or not, I think it is pretty undeniable European blades were present in the area. But I feel like I've made these points before...

The exact time periods and routes these blades arrived from, are out of my area I'm afraid. But I look forward to those that are continuing to research it.

All the best,

Iain

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

I've previously posted a few examples with blades bearing the running wolf of Passau and later Solingen...

Here, again, one of the more compelling examples. http://www.swordforum.com/forums/sho...is-a-good-deal

Keep in mind what I have access to is simply what is online via Google or similar, there are many swords held in private collections around the world by individuals who may have never released photographs online. Chances are there are many more.

Even if some of the wolf marks are local copies, you have to account for where the idea to use the mark came from. Whether period travelers and Europeans present in the area noted it or not, I think it is pretty undeniable European blades were present in the area. But I feel like I've made these points before...

The exact time periods and routes these blades arrived from, are out of my area I'm afraid. But I look forward to those that are continuing to research it.

All the best,

Iain

Salaams Iain, Yes thats fine but they are not Omani European Trade Blades..what they are is African European Trade Blades. They are entirely different blades. The Omani blade of so called approximate 18thC introduction and superceding the Omani Old Battle Sayf is a complete all in one blade hilt pommel steel weapon with fullers (one two or three) moreover it is flexible to 90 degrees returning to straight immediately. Blades like the one at your reference are thicker blades normally ending in a point and not flexible say other than perhaps 10% ~ The addition of the running wolf is interesting and I have seen an Omani blade with a similar mark but caution ... Where was the mark carried out; locally or where? I suspect somewhere in Africa to bolster the price in the case of the African weapons and in the case of the Omani example in the Muscat Museum probably in Oman..and noted in the Museum as a fake mark. The running wolf is after all the simplest to copy. The blade at your reference looks like one of the Saudia, Yemeni (or possibly African)or perhaps Algerian blades I have previously noted and at #1 to this thread and discussed at # 176... mainly concerning Michael Blalocks sword indicating an Algerian provenance to its blademark.
No evidence whatsoever save some comments quite possibly copied in error and duplicated in a few quite prestigious publications in the last century mention anything to do with Omani European Trade Blades... emphasis on Omani since African Trade Blades are well known.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi.

[Iain]

Hi Ibrahiim,

If you want to make that distinction (and I don't worry I understand why because of the functionality needed for the dance you commented on a lot previously ) there has to be a reason what you are terming African trade blades are showing up in Omani mounts and while I certainly don't have the cultural insight you have, I am a little lost then as to why, if the flexibility is so important, stiffer blades seem to have been used as well... Is the flexibility what makes the sword truly Omani in your opinion? Because judging from the examples I'm posting there seems to be no problem with Omanis using stiffer blades...

One thought that immediately strikes me is if the flexible blades are a local development from the stiffer general trade blades? And of course that was part of my point with the wolf marks, they are easy to copy and show clear European influence in some of these blades.

Just in case I never added this one earlier in the thread, here's another one that sold a while back at a Czech auction house.

http://www.antiq.cz/aukce/m-n/katalog6-98/en/528.html

[Ibrahiim al Balooshi]

Originally Posted by Iain

Hi Ibrahiim,

If you want to make that distinction (and I don't worry I understand why because of the functionality needed for the dance you commented on a lot previously ) there has to be a reason what you are terming African trade blades are showing up in Omani mounts and while I certainly don't have the cultural insight you have, I am a little lost then as to why, if the flexibility is so important, stiffer blades seem to have been used as well... Is the flexibility what makes the sword truly Omani in your opinion? Because judging from the examples I'm posting there seems to be no problem with Omanis using stiffer blades...

One thought that immediately strikes me is if the flexible blades are a local development from the stiffer general trade blades? And of course that was part of my point with the wolf marks, they are easy to copy and show clear European influence in some of these blades.

Just in case I never added this one earlier in the thread, here's another one that sold a while back at a Czech auction house.

http://www.antiq.cz/aukce/m-n/katalog6-98/en/528.html

Salaams Iain ... Your reference is like #1 to this thread and could be by origin African Red Sea (Yemeni or Saudia) or related to Mamluke or an Algerian derivative. It apparently has the wolf too... like other examples I have handled the wolf is a diversionary mark intended to hoist the price. The description on your reference states and I quote:

"Sword blade from a cavalry sword, Passau wolf mark in the lower part of the double-edged blade, point rounded later, wooden grip bound with leather and ornamental silver wire, made in central Africa, blade - 16th/17th cent., hilt - early 19th century, length 97 cm, length of blade 78 cm" Unquote.

The information is very sketchy and only half believable. The only thing vaguelly Omani about this Sayf is the hilt. Though I dont have the sword in front of me I can see that it is as the # 1 in style... Thick inflexible blade with a point. Omani blades are by definition spatulate tipped and very springy... as I say a 90 degree bend is normal.

Regarding the New Omani Sayf of circa 18th C and said to be a European Trade Blade ~The vital ingredient of these Omani Sayfs is their flexibility, spatulate tip and on a long hilt. If it is stiff or pointed it is not Omani.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

[Iain]

Originally Posted by Ibrahiim al Balooshi

Salaams Iain ... Your reference is like #1 to this thread and could be by origin African Red Sea (Yemeni or Saudia) or related to Mamluke or an Algerian derivative. It apparently has the wolf too... like other examples I have handled the wolf is a diversionary mark intended to hoist the price. The description on your reference states and I quote:

"Sword blade from a cavalry sword, Passau wolf mark in the lower part of the double-edged blade, point rounded later, wooden grip bound with leather and ornamental silver wire, made in central Africa, blade - 16th/17th cent., hilt - early 19th century, length 97 cm, length of blade 78 cm" Unquote.

The information is very sketchy and only half believable. The only thing vaguelly Omani about this Sayf is the hilt. Though I dont have the sword in front of me I can see that it is as the # 1 in style... Thick inflexible blade with a point. Omani blades are by definition spatulate tipped and very springy... as I say a 90 degree bend is normal.

Regarding the New Omani Sayf of circa 18th C and said to be a European Trade Blade ~The vital ingredient of these Omani Sayfs is their flexibility, spatulate tip and on a long hilt. If it is stiff or pointed it is not Omani.

Regards,
Ibrahiim al Balooshi

So just to clarify you are saying the two examples I have just linked (which have rounded tips) are not Omani, meaning they were not used in Oman by Omanis? I think this is an important point to be stated clearly, that unless it's flexible it cannot have anything to do with Oman?

Cheers,

Iain