Wilah nr2 hope you can help with identification

Harley · 5th January 2012, 11:13 PM

Thank you Alan, i shall place the third wilah here, because i think that it is a sort of the same as this one.
And i hope that this time i do it in the right way, but you have to scroll

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 6th January 2012, 04:26 AM

Harley, this blade is vastly better than the previous one.

I am uncertain as to a classification, but I think possibly north coast, towards the west. Stained properly this blade would come up nicely. Not a bad blade at all.

Amuk Murugul · 6th January 2012, 05:48 AM

Hullo everybody,

Harley, your blades that I have seen seem to come from the Cirebon/Tegal area. If all of them are similar, you must have had a field day buying them up.

BTW ..... if they are indeed from this area, then I would call them 'Sunda', especially if they are longer than 'normal' (i.e. more akin to the larger Balinese blades). The Sunda traditionally prefer their blades to be 'dry' looking. Hence they don't stain them.
Blades tend to be simple and not 'proud'/intimidating.
WRT to dapur, that's more difficult.
Cirebon has had the longest exposure to Jawa influence. So the blades tend to follow the prevailing pakem Jawa. Though there are still those who adhere to the old pakem. However, I have noticed blades which seem to be some form of 'marriage' between the two. Confusion? Or merely commercial opportunism?

Best,

Harley · 6th January 2012, 11:34 AM

That is a nice surprise!
Thank you again Alan, you're of the greatest help to me.

Hello Amuk Murugul,

To my untrained eyes they where similar, but it says more about me then about the wilah's i 'm afraid

I don't think they are longer as usual, this one is 35,5 cm(I forgot to mention).
I can Imagen that it's so difficult to tell something about the blades and even more when there is some kind of marriage between to different styles.
Thank you very much for your contribution!

regards,
Ben

A. G. Maisey · 6th January 2012, 08:42 PM

Amuk, I cannot disagree that the second blade that has been posted may be able to be classified as Cirebon, however, in the system of classification that I was taught, Cirebon is not recognized as a classification.

The relevant classification that includes Cirebon is Pajajaran, and Pajajaran is sub-divided into at least three sub classifications, which are numbered, not named.

However, I am very reluctant to identify this second blade as Pajajaran, because although there are some indicators which point to Pajajaran, for instance, the bata rubuh blumbangan, there are too many conflicting indicators, and as the blade is out of stain it is impossible to appraise the nature of the pamor, which is a key indicator for Pajajaran keris.

Still, it may be able to be tagged as Cirebon. Regrettably I have never encountered a list of indicators for a Cirebon classification, either within the system that I was taught, nor anywhere else.

The first blade posted is quite dissimilar to the second blade. My inclination is to place it as East Jawa, but the quality of the blade is really too low to permit any sort of realistic attempt at classification, and from the photos I cannot even guess what the material might be like. In fact, it could be from anywhere, so if you feel inclined to place it in West Jawa, or Sunda, I will respect your opinion, but in the absence of indicators it is difficult for me to understand how you came to that opinion.

Jean · 7th January 2012, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

Still, it may be able to be tagged as Cirebon. Regrettably I have never encountered a list of indicators for a Cirebon classification, either within the system that I was taught, nor anywhere else.

Alan,
The indicators of the blades attributed to tangguh Cirebon are described in the EK (page 463) but they are not very distinctive nor matching with the strong Cirebon blades especially.
Regards

A. G. Maisey · 7th January 2012, 10:41 AM

Yes Jean, there is a supposed mention in EK, along with other tangguh, but its not really the definitive sort of thing that I'm used to. I'm afraid that virtually all the people I know well in Jawa who are associated with keris tend to take EK with a fairly considerable grain of salt.

I suppose I should not have used "never", but I very often automatically discount, and thus forget, things that are not worth remembering.

Sajen · 7th January 2012, 03:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Amuk Murugul

The Sunda traditionally prefer their blades to be 'dry' looking. Hence they don't stain them.

As well interesting since I have read/heard this before. And I have done an observation: Many (if I am able to say so since I haven't seen so much) keris sheaths from this region are painted (look my first example) or coated with something I don't know so that you can't see the wood. Someone else are able to confirm this? And why is it like this?

Regards,

Detlef

A. G. Maisey · 7th January 2012, 09:11 PM

Jean, I don't intend to be difficult, nor evasive here, but I'm afraid that you, and just about everybody else who contributes to discussion here look at keris in a different way to the way in which I look at a keris.

You have shown me photos of two keris, one of which (the full pendok) is probably able to be classified as Cirebon, the other of which is possibly Cirebon, however, in respect of the blades alone, I am not prepared to offer an opinion on origin.

It is very possible that the full pendok keris has a blade that might be able to be classified as Cirebon, and comparison with Ben's blade is worthwhile.

However, although I nearly always talk in terms of "classification", what I'm really talking about is tangguh. I use the English word "classification" because I am mostly addressing an English speaking audience, in Jawa I would use the word "tangguh".

I have often stated that in my opinion it is almost impossible to give an opinion on tangguh from photos. I say "almost impossible", this is because sometimes sufficient indicators are apparent in a photo to permit a supportable opinion to be given. That opinion could , of course, always be incorrect, and only if a blade is handled can a definite, defensible opinion be provided.

The question of classification becomes very, very much more difficult when a blade is a simple dhapur:- no greneng, no ron dha, no sogokan, no kembang kacang. Lacking these indicators it can sometimes approach extreme bravery to offer an opinion in respect of a classification --- or perhaps such opinions simply demonstrate a lack of understanding.

In the Solonese system of tangguh there is no tangguh Cirebon. Cirebon is included in tangguh Pajajaran, and tangguh Pajajaran has several numbered sub-divisions. To be certain of any blade that is suspected of being tangguh Pajajaran one definitely needs the blade in the hand. An opinion cannot be supported on the basis of what can be seen in a photo.

It is worthwhile remembering that the idea of tangguh arose in the ranks of the aristocracy of Central Jawa, principally amongst those who were attached to the Surakarta Karaton, and it arose for a defined purpose. That purpose was not simply to permit neat record keeping and the maintenance of a filing system.

At the present time there is a plethora of tangguh from which to choose, however, thirty years ago, and before that, the number of available tangguh was very much more limited. One may draw one's own conclusions from this. So, now we have tangguh Cirebon, however as I have already stated, I do not know what the indicators are for tangguh Cirebon. The notes in EK are totally inadequate, I can find nothing in any of the classic guidebooks. Who truly knows the indicators for Cirebon? Indicators that will permit the identification of blade if it is tangguh brojol, or tangguh tilam upih?

Now, you Jean, and Detlef have posted some keris as examples of Cirebon keris.

What I can see is four keris that have elements of dress that may, or may not be Cirebon, and four totally different blades.

Bear in mind:- when I am talking about a classification, or tangguh, I am addressing only the blade, and what I can see in these examples are four blades that bear not the slightest resemblance one unto the other.

I have mentioned "indicators" several times. What I am looking for in respect of indicators is, as a minimum, this:-

1) Tanting : perceived weight.

2) Besi : iron

3) Baja: steel

4) Pamor: the material used to create the contrasting pattern observed on a keris blade

5) Pawakan: the form of the body of the keris; the overall visual impression

6) Gonjo: the wider , separate section at the blade base

7) Gandhik: the swelling at the front of the blade base

8) Blumbangan: the depression at the blade base gripped between thumb and forefinger

9) Sogokan: the fuller or fullers sometimes found in the sorsoran of a keris

10) Ada-Ada: the central ridge

11) Kruwingan: the depressions running on either side of the ada-ada

12) Luk-lukan: the waves

13) Wadidang: the broad curve of the blade into the gonjo

Only about half of these indicators can be appraised from a photo, and some of the indicators do not exist in a keris with a simple dhapur.

Then with Cirebon we have the problem of makers.
Who were the known mpus in Cirebon?
I cannot answer this off the top of my head, I'd need to go back and plow through The genealogies extracted from the "Descent of the Mpus of the Land of Jawa", however, going just on memory, I cannot recall any notable mpus who were directly connected to Cirebon. No notable mpus can very possibly be interpreted as no distinct style, only dominant characteristics. This again makes it quite difficult to classify Cirebon.

As I said at the beginning of this post:- I look at keris in a somewhat different way to most other people. Because of this I regret that I am unable to provide a supportable opinion in response to the question you have raised in your post #10.

Jean · 8th January 2012, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by A. G. Maisey

You have shown me photos of two keris, one of which (the full pendok) is probably able to be classified as Cirebon, the other of which is possibly Cirebon, however, in respect of the blades alone, I am not prepared to offer an opinion on origin.
In the Solonese system of tangguh there is no tangguh Cirebon.
Now, you Jean, and Detlef have posted some keris as examples of Cirebon keris.
What I can see is four keris that have elements of dress that may, or may not be Cirebon, and four totally different blades.
Bear in mind:- when I am talking about a classification, or tangguh, I am addressing only the blade, and what I can see in these examples are four blades that bear not the slightest resemblance one unto the other.

As I said at the beginning of this post:- I look at keris in a somewhat different way to most other people. Because of this I regret that I am unable to provide a supportable opinion in response to the question you have raised in your post #10.

Hello Alan,
Thank you very much for your detailed and logical reply. First I apologize for not having shown more detailed pictures of these blades as it is a bit difficult for me at present, but it would probably not have brought much additional information regarding their classification. However I can take additional pictures of the sorsoran and ganja if you deem it useful.
My question was supposed to be simple but it ended-up to be much more complex than I expected!
Regarding the straight blade, my point is as follows: I agree that it is not distinctive in terms of dapur and pamor but it seems an old blade measuring 47 cm long excluding the peksi, so could it originate from another area than Cirebon/Tegal? (such as a manufacturing center). Of course these blades are quite rustic ones and were not made by empus. I have and have seen several similar ones (see another example).
The Central Javanese tangguh system ignores Cirebon and Banten although these two centers constitute a very reliable source of genuine old krisses dating from the 17th century brought to Europe by the traders and now found in the museums and old collections as shown in Jensen's Krisdisk.
Best regards

A. G. Maisey · 8th January 2012, 10:38 AM

Jean, when we play the tangguh game there are certain things that I regard as givens.

For example, show me any blade with a Surakarta ron dha, a boto adeg blumbangan, and I'm going to say that it is Surakarta.

It might well not be, but if that is all the evidence I've got, I'll back Surakarta every time, UNTIL I GET IT IN MY HAND.

In my hand, my opinion could well change.

Now, if I am shown a photo of a blade that lacks any definitive characteristics, how is it possible for me to even give a very wild guess as to point of origin? It simply is not. Such a blade could be from anywhere.

Let me hold it, examine it properly, maybe think about it for a couple of days, I might be able to put forward an opinion that I can support. But from a photo? I regret I do not have psychic powers.

Further, the tangguh system was never, ever intended to be applied to low , or even middle quality blades. Everybody who follows this Forum should have realized this by now, as it has been stated a number of times, not only by myself, but also by others.

Its fine to present a complete keris and claim such and such a place as its point of origin. I don't have any problem at all with this. But to try to hang a tangguh on the blade of this keris, when there is absolutely no evidence to support the opinion of the tangguh is just not on.

What virtually everybody in the present day fails to realize is that the tangguh system was not devised for the purpose of being able to identify old blades, stick a label on them, and put them in the right pigeon hole. The purpose of the system was far more serious than that, for the people concerned. I will not expand on this remark, as I have a paper in the pipeline.

Yes, a lot of blades that entered Europe early were obtained in Cirebon and Banten, but this does not mean that they were made there. There was a very active trade network throughout Jawa and the rest of S.E. Asia long before and continuing past the 16th & 17th centuries. The major power in Jawa in the 17th century was Mataram, at least some of these early blades collected in Banten and Cirebon must be from Mataram. It would be illogical to think otherwise.

5th January 2012, 11:13 PM	#1
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	Thank you Alan, i shall place the third wilah here, because i think that it is a sort of the same as this one. And i hope that this time i do it in the right way, but you have to scroll regards, Ben Attached Images

6th January 2012, 04:26 AM	#2
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Harley, this blade is vastly better than the previous one. I am uncertain as to a classification, but I think possibly north coast, towards the west. Stained properly this blade would come up nicely. Not a bad blade at all.

6th January 2012, 05:48 AM	#3
Amuk Murugul Member Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Kaboejoetan Galoenggoeng Mélben Posts: 472	Hullo everybody, Harley, your blades that I have seen seem to come from the Cirebon/Tegal area. If all of them are similar, you must have had a field day buying them up. BTW ..... if they are indeed from this area, then I would call them 'Sunda', especially if they are longer than 'normal' (i.e. more akin to the larger Balinese blades). The Sunda traditionally prefer their blades to be 'dry' looking. Hence they don't stain them. Blades tend to be simple and not 'proud'/intimidating. WRT to dapur, that's more difficult. Cirebon has had the longest exposure to Jawa influence. So the blades tend to follow the prevailing pakem Jawa. Though there are still those who adhere to the old pakem. However, I have noticed blades which seem to be some form of 'marriage' between the two. Confusion? Or merely commercial opportunism? Best,

6th January 2012, 11:34 AM	#4
Harley Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Location: Nederland Posts: 83	That is a nice surprise! Thank you again Alan, you're of the greatest help to me. Hello Amuk Murugul, To my untrained eyes they where similar, but it says more about me then about the wilah's i 'm afraid I don't think they are longer as usual, this one is 35,5 cm(I forgot to mention). I can Imagen that it's so difficult to tell something about the blades and even more when there is some kind of marriage between to different styles. Thank you very much for your contribution! regards, Ben

6th January 2012, 08:42 PM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Amuk, I cannot disagree that the second blade that has been posted may be able to be classified as Cirebon, however, in the system of classification that I was taught, Cirebon is not recognized as a classification. The relevant classification that includes Cirebon is Pajajaran, and Pajajaran is sub-divided into at least three sub classifications, which are numbered, not named. However, I am very reluctant to identify this second blade as Pajajaran, because although there are some indicators which point to Pajajaran, for instance, the bata rubuh blumbangan, there are too many conflicting indicators, and as the blade is out of stain it is impossible to appraise the nature of the pamor, which is a key indicator for Pajajaran keris. Still, it may be able to be tagged as Cirebon. Regrettably I have never encountered a list of indicators for a Cirebon classification, either within the system that I was taught, nor anywhere else. The first blade posted is quite dissimilar to the second blade. My inclination is to place it as East Jawa, but the quality of the blade is really too low to permit any sort of realistic attempt at classification, and from the photos I cannot even guess what the material might be like. In fact, it could be from anywhere, so if you feel inclined to place it in West Jawa, or Sunda, I will respect your opinion, but in the absence of indicators it is difficult for me to understand how you came to that opinion.

7th January 2012, 10:41 AM	#7
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Yes Jean, there is a supposed mention in EK, along with other tangguh, but its not really the definitive sort of thing that I'm used to. I'm afraid that virtually all the people I know well in Jawa who are associated with keris tend to take EK with a fairly considerable grain of salt. I suppose I should not have used "never", but I very often automatically discount, and thus forget, things that are not worth remembering.

7th January 2012, 09:11 PM	#9
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Jean, I don't intend to be difficult, nor evasive here, but I'm afraid that you, and just about everybody else who contributes to discussion here look at keris in a different way to the way in which I look at a keris. You have shown me photos of two keris, one of which (the full pendok) is probably able to be classified as Cirebon, the other of which is possibly Cirebon, however, in respect of the blades alone, I am not prepared to offer an opinion on origin. It is very possible that the full pendok keris has a blade that might be able to be classified as Cirebon, and comparison with Ben's blade is worthwhile. However, although I nearly always talk in terms of "classification", what I'm really talking about is tangguh. I use the English word "classification" because I am mostly addressing an English speaking audience, in Jawa I would use the word "tangguh". I have often stated that in my opinion it is almost impossible to give an opinion on tangguh from photos. I say "almost impossible", this is because sometimes sufficient indicators are apparent in a photo to permit a supportable opinion to be given. That opinion could , of course, always be incorrect, and only if a blade is handled can a definite, defensible opinion be provided. The question of classification becomes very, very much more difficult when a blade is a simple dhapur:- no greneng, no ron dha, no sogokan, no kembang kacang. Lacking these indicators it can sometimes approach extreme bravery to offer an opinion in respect of a classification --- or perhaps such opinions simply demonstrate a lack of understanding. In the Solonese system of tangguh there is no tangguh Cirebon. Cirebon is included in tangguh Pajajaran, and tangguh Pajajaran has several numbered sub-divisions. To be certain of any blade that is suspected of being tangguh Pajajaran one definitely needs the blade in the hand. An opinion cannot be supported on the basis of what can be seen in a photo. It is worthwhile remembering that the idea of tangguh arose in the ranks of the aristocracy of Central Jawa, principally amongst those who were attached to the Surakarta Karaton, and it arose for a defined purpose. That purpose was not simply to permit neat record keeping and the maintenance of a filing system. At the present time there is a plethora of tangguh from which to choose, however, thirty years ago, and before that, the number of available tangguh was very much more limited. One may draw one's own conclusions from this. So, now we have tangguh Cirebon, however as I have already stated, I do not know what the indicators are for tangguh Cirebon. The notes in EK are totally inadequate, I can find nothing in any of the classic guidebooks. Who truly knows the indicators for Cirebon? Indicators that will permit the identification of blade if it is tangguh brojol, or tangguh tilam upih? Now, you Jean, and Detlef have posted some keris as examples of Cirebon keris. What I can see is four keris that have elements of dress that may, or may not be Cirebon, and four totally different blades. Bear in mind:- when I am talking about a classification, or tangguh, I am addressing only the blade, and what I can see in these examples are four blades that bear not the slightest resemblance one unto the other. I have mentioned "indicators" several times. What I am looking for in respect of indicators is, as a minimum, this:- 1) Tanting : perceived weight. 2) Besi : iron 3) Baja: steel 4) Pamor: the material used to create the contrasting pattern observed on a keris blade 5) Pawakan: the form of the body of the keris; the overall visual impression 6) Gonjo: the wider , separate section at the blade base 7) Gandhik: the swelling at the front of the blade base 8) Blumbangan: the depression at the blade base gripped between thumb and forefinger 9) Sogokan: the fuller or fullers sometimes found in the sorsoran of a keris 10) Ada-Ada: the central ridge 11) Kruwingan: the depressions running on either side of the ada-ada 12) Luk-lukan: the waves 13) Wadidang: the broad curve of the blade into the gonjo Only about half of these indicators can be appraised from a photo, and some of the indicators do not exist in a keris with a simple dhapur. Then with Cirebon we have the problem of makers. Who were the known mpus in Cirebon? I cannot answer this off the top of my head, I'd need to go back and plow through The genealogies extracted from the "Descent of the Mpus of the Land of Jawa", however, going just on memory, I cannot recall any notable mpus who were directly connected to Cirebon. No notable mpus can very possibly be interpreted as no distinct style, only dominant characteristics. This again makes it quite difficult to classify Cirebon. As I said at the beginning of this post:- I look at keris in a somewhat different way to most other people. Because of this I regret that I am unable to provide a supportable opinion in response to the question you have raised in your post #10.

8th January 2012, 10:38 AM	#11
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,013	Jean, when we play the tangguh game there are certain things that I regard as givens. For example, show me any blade with a Surakarta ron dha, a boto adeg blumbangan, and I'm going to say that it is Surakarta. It might well not be, but if that is all the evidence I've got, I'll back Surakarta every time, UNTIL I GET IT IN MY HAND. In my hand, my opinion could well change. Now, if I am shown a photo of a blade that lacks any definitive characteristics, how is it possible for me to even give a very wild guess as to point of origin? It simply is not. Such a blade could be from anywhere. Let me hold it, examine it properly, maybe think about it for a couple of days, I might be able to put forward an opinion that I can support. But from a photo? I regret I do not have psychic powers. Further, the tangguh system was never, ever intended to be applied to low , or even middle quality blades. Everybody who follows this Forum should have realized this by now, as it has been stated a number of times, not only by myself, but also by others. Its fine to present a complete keris and claim such and such a place as its point of origin. I don't have any problem at all with this. But to try to hang a tangguh on the blade of this keris, when there is absolutely no evidence to support the opinion of the tangguh is just not on. What virtually everybody in the present day fails to realize is that the tangguh system was not devised for the purpose of being able to identify old blades, stick a label on them, and put them in the right pigeon hole. The purpose of the system was far more serious than that, for the people concerned. I will not expand on this remark, as I have a paper in the pipeline. Yes, a lot of blades that entered Europe early were obtained in Cirebon and Banten, but this does not mean that they were made there. There was a very active trade network throughout Jawa and the rest of S.E. Asia long before and continuing past the 16th & 17th centuries. The major power in Jawa in the 17th century was Mataram, at least some of these early blades collected in Banten and Cirebon must be from Mataram. It would be illogical to think otherwise.