Special sword for ID and comments

ericlaude · 5th January 2012, 12:01 PM

Hello,
Your sword is an Algerian Berber Flissa.

Iain · 5th January 2012, 12:30 PM

As Eric said, it is a flissa or flyssa, sword of the Kabyle people of Algeria and part of Morocco.

Your example seems nice, although you should clean the rust. The large ones are generally considered more attractive and the quality of the decorative engraving and inlay is also a way to judge them by. It is hard to see from your photos very much detail about this.

A little searching on the forum for flissa or flyssa will give you a lot of information about them. Some of the members have done quite a bit of research into the type.

All the best,

Iain

ariel · 5th January 2012, 06:05 PM

My understanding is that flyssas were used virtually exclusively for slashing, which will go along quite well with the comments of the contemporaries about absent stabbing technique in arab and indian swordplays.
Indeed, the point is weak, and the absent guard would allow the hand to slip off with stabbing. However..... Any evidence of stabbing anyway?

Madsen · 5th January 2012, 09:27 PM

Thank you for your replies! I just needed something to start my reasearch and I have that now!

Iain · 6th January 2012, 10:57 PM

Happy to help Madsen.

I have always liked flyssa, they are an odd and intriguing sword type and the big ones are not all that common to find. Congratulations again on a nice piece.

Emanuel · 6th January 2012, 11:12 PM

Hello, lovely Flyssa!!

There's lots on the forum on these swords, my favourite.

Ariel, I have a number of large flyssas and I don't find the point particularly weak. I wouldn't try to stab through any kind of armour or thick padded cloth, but I don't think it would have any problem piercing lightly covered flesh. I'll try it against a chunk of pork some time.

Iain, a quick question to you and the rest of the forum: I've seen a number of dealers and websites note "the Kabyle people of Algeria and part of Morocco."
Could anyone point to where this (misunderstanding I think) first popped up?

Morocco is west of Algeria. Kabylia is a region in the north-east corner of Algeria. Until the French conquest there were practically no links between the two on account of the Ottoman domination of the area. I think there was a misunderstanding at some point between "Kabyle" and "Berber". The majority of Moroccans and Kabyles are Berber people (as were the Tuareg for that matter), but Kabylians have nothing to do with Morocco, as far as I've been able to find to date, and the flyssa was not produced or used in Morocco.

What is interesting though, is that at some point at the very end of the 19th century and start of the 20th, the smaller flyssa daggers produced in Kabylia were fused with elements of the Moroccan nimcha, producing the "wedding nimcha" and its variants. I think this happened in Algeria first and that by the middle of the 20th century or later this moved to Morocco, where they were simplified. The wooden fittings were no longer carved, and while the earlier flyssa blades were forged, the "wedding nimcha" blade is a very thin piece cut from sheet metal.

Best regards to all in this new year!

Emanuel

- Madsen, please drop me a line if you ever feel like parting with your flissa

Iain · 6th January 2012, 11:21 PM

Hi Emanuel,

Long time since I've seen you post, welcome back!

The Morocco thing... I quickly had a glance at Wikipedia, so that's likely where the error stems from, although it doesn't seem to appear on the main Kabyle people article now...

So I'm not really sure but I'm glad to be corrected!

Just to illustrate Emanuel's point, here's a map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kabyle-map.jpg

Best,

Iain

Dom · 5th June 2012, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Emanuel

Iain, a quick question to you and the rest of the forum: I've seen a number of dealers and websites note "the Kabyle people of Algeria and part of Morocco."
Could anyone point to where this (misunderstanding I think) first popped up?

Hi Emanuel
sorry to have completely over pass that important question,
I noticed several times, here or there, the confusion about the BerberS
(they are several) population in "Great Maghreb"
we are not facing different tribes, but really different population groups,
who have in comnun, the language and alphabet (tamazigh), and
the fact to have been landowner for the country before the Arabic invasions
but, each group have singularities very special, i.e. ;

- Kabyles have a "flissa" but Tuaregs have a "Katouba"
- Kabyles are sedentary mountain-people, and Tuaregs are nomades from deep Sahara,
more than 2000 km between them ...
- Mozabites, as far I know, never have a specific weapons, they are "traders",
if they are trading almost everything, as principle, they are against the weapons for themselves ...

I may continue for long to list the differences between each group,
to give you an opportunity of clarify this imbroglio,
I extracted from "wikipedia" 2 documents, one it's in English, 2nd in French, so sorry
hoping thereby, it will start to be more clearer for you all,
I spent 6 years in these parts, and this subject become familiar to me,
at the beggining has been ... an ink-pot ... for me also

à +

Dom

ps/ I discovered this interesting subject, because I was ready to present my last input ... a "long flissa"

5th January 2012, 09:27 PM	#4
Madsen Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Posts: 4	Ok! Thank you for your replies! I just needed something to start my reasearch and I have that now!

5th January 2012, 12:01 PM	#1
ericlaude Member Join Date: Oct 2008 Posts: 187	Hello, Your sword is an Algerian Berber Flissa.

5th January 2012, 12:30 PM	#2
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	As Eric said, it is a flissa or flyssa, sword of the Kabyle people of Algeria and part of Morocco. Your example seems nice, although you should clean the rust. The large ones are generally considered more attractive and the quality of the decorative engraving and inlay is also a way to judge them by. It is hard to see from your photos very much detail about this. A little searching on the forum for flissa or flyssa will give you a lot of information about them. Some of the members have done quite a bit of research into the type. All the best, Iain

5th January 2012, 06:05 PM	#3
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	My understanding is that flyssas were used virtually exclusively for slashing, which will go along quite well with the comments of the contemporaries about absent stabbing technique in arab and indian swordplays. Indeed, the point is weak, and the absent guard would allow the hand to slip off with stabbing. However..... Any evidence of stabbing anyway?

6th January 2012, 10:57 PM	#5
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Happy to help Madsen. I have always liked flyssa, they are an odd and intriguing sword type and the big ones are not all that common to find. Congratulations again on a nice piece.

6th January 2012, 11:12 PM	#6
Emanuel Member Join Date: Jul 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 1,242	Hello, lovely Flyssa!! There's lots on the forum on these swords, my favourite. Ariel, I have a number of large flyssas and I don't find the point particularly weak. I wouldn't try to stab through any kind of armour or thick padded cloth, but I don't think it would have any problem piercing lightly covered flesh. I'll try it against a chunk of pork some time. Iain, a quick question to you and the rest of the forum: I've seen a number of dealers and websites note "the Kabyle people of Algeria and part of Morocco." Could anyone point to where this (misunderstanding I think) first popped up? Morocco is west of Algeria. Kabylia is a region in the north-east corner of Algeria. Until the French conquest there were practically no links between the two on account of the Ottoman domination of the area. I think there was a misunderstanding at some point between "Kabyle" and "Berber". The majority of Moroccans and Kabyles are Berber people (as were the Tuareg for that matter), but Kabylians have nothing to do with Morocco, as far as I've been able to find to date, and the flyssa was not produced or used in Morocco. What is interesting though, is that at some point at the very end of the 19th century and start of the 20th, the smaller flyssa daggers produced in Kabylia were fused with elements of the Moroccan nimcha, producing the "wedding nimcha" and its variants. I think this happened in Algeria first and that by the middle of the 20th century or later this moved to Morocco, where they were simplified. The wooden fittings were no longer carved, and while the earlier flyssa blades were forged, the "wedding nimcha" blade is a very thin piece cut from sheet metal. Best regards to all in this new year! Emanuel - Madsen, please drop me a line if you ever feel like parting with your flissa

6th January 2012, 11:21 PM	#7
Iain Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Olomouc Posts: 1,717	Hi Emanuel, Long time since I've seen you post, welcome back! The Morocco thing... I quickly had a glance at Wikipedia, so that's likely where the error stems from, although it doesn't seem to appear on the main Kabyle people article now... So I'm not really sure but I'm glad to be corrected! Just to illustrate Emanuel's point, here's a map: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Kabyle-map.jpg Best, Iain