Need Help to Identify Pamor and Tangguh

ivoke · 30th December 2011, 07:33 PM

the carpet, try it on a sheet of glas, much more difficult.

Azman · 30th December 2011, 10:24 PM

Marco,

If it is a trick, then this act should also be possible for any other forms of dagger like weapons. It would be interesting to make this comparison.

David,

I know...it's amazing ins't it. This is where science and mystic converge. I cannot understand how could this happen as it defies the law of physics. With an offset to neutral axis, the CG remains perfectly balance. Once the CG is perfectly balance, it will stand. This can be proven by the coke can trick. This is achieved by adjusting the water content in the coke can to a perfect half volume of the can. You can try this too. Now if this happen to the keris than it's either sheer luck or the empu is so brilliant to forge and hammer the steel in a perfectly balance CG. May be possible in those days...

Thank you Jean,

I kind of suspected this to be blarak ngirid pattern but they don't really look alike. I suppose each one is unique based on the condition and empu that did the work.

Any chance to get the views on my earlier questions on empu and tangguh

Cheers, Azman

Rick · 31st December 2011, 12:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azman

Any chance to get the views on my earlier questions on empu and tangguh

Cheers, Azman

From some pictures ?
Very doubtful .

David · 31st December 2011, 04:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Azman

Any chance to get the views on my earlier questions on empu and tangguh

A relatively small number of keris in collections were made by empus. The majority would be village made piece. Even if a keris can be verified as an empu creation, being able to identify the empu who made it would be extremely difficult without some sort of provenance.
Tangguh is a practice which is probably best not being applied to non-keraton keris though in today's world people attempt to apply it to any old keris. Attempting to accurately assess tangguh, even on a keris to which the practice is applicable, is tenuous at best when solely determined by a few internet images. Many of the points required to assess tangguh require having the keris in hand.

A. G. Maisey · 31st December 2011, 05:16 AM

Very nicely put David.

I will not comment on Azman's keris, because I do not have it in my hand, and my opinions formed from the photos could well be incorrect.

However, here are a couple of photos of a a blade that bears some very strong similarities to Azman's keris, and I have had this keris in my hand. It is current era Madura, last half of the 20th century, it is very strong on artistic merit, but it does not go back to the times when it could be dignified with attribution to a named empu. It can be given a tangguh: kamardikan, that is, the period following Indonesian independence.

Azman · 31st December 2011, 03:08 PM

Great thanks David/AG for the excellent rationalization on empu and description of tangguh. In all honesty I don't understand the term empu. I thought it's a name given to a keris maker. From both of your explanation it looks like empu is a very special designatory to a very skillful person.

AG, your keris pamor looks very similar to mine and the blade is in perfect condition. I wonder how do you take care of this blades it looks very new and excellently preserved. I'm really worried looking at my blade as it has sign of pitting corrosion at several location of the blade. Presently, I'm using minyak cendana (a very thick scented oil) to cover the blade monthly. I have bought this from the person who sold me this keris. It's a small bottle. It'll probably last me a year at most. Can you suggest where can I buy this or is there any other alternative. I saw a write up on this from one of our members whom has suggested using conventional lubrication oil of German product that I can't remember the name right now.

Lastly, a very Happy New Year to all team members and I hope this informative site will continue thriving with knowledge of our forefathers ethnographic armament.

ivoke · 31st December 2011, 08:18 PM

http://silat-melayu.blogspot.com/200...and-keris.html

how to make a keris stand up

Happy Newyear

A. G. Maisey · 31st December 2011, 09:22 PM

The word "empu" or "mpu" originally was simply a term of respect (in Old Javanese), roughly equivalent the modern "tuan", or "sir" in English, however, with the development of Modern Javanese, it became a title for a master of literature or an armourer, especially one attached to a karaton ( the seat of a ruler). These karaton empus also carry a title that is in accord with rank within the karaton, as distinct from profession within the karaton. In Bahasa Indonesia it carries the sense of a master craftsmen.

In Jawa it is possible for a person who is not a part of karaton hierarchy to become known as an empu, because of recognition by the common people.

A keris can be made by a pandai keris ( keris craftsman), or by a common smith , a tukang besi or pande wesi.

In Bali the makers of keris were and are members of the Pande Clan, they are not attached to the any ruler in the sense that Karaton empus in Jawa are, but they have the duty to respond to a call from the ruler of their area.

Regarding the age of the blade which I have owned, and the blade which is owned by Azman.

The blade which I have owned is perfectly finished and has not been subjected to any concentrated processing to produce the appearance of age.

Based upon what I can see the photos, I believe that the blade of Azman's keris has been subjected to processing intended to give the appearance of age.

I must emphasise that this processing is not carried out by a maker with any attempt to defraud nor to mislead, it is done because this is the appearance which is favoured by Javanese people. However, dealers in keris are not always particularly forthcoming with the true age of a keris. A recently made keris can very often be made of archaic iron, but all that means is that the iron is old, not the keris.

Azman, I believe that if you examine the pitting in your blade under magnification, you will find that there is no active rust. If you do find active rust, I suggest that you carefully remove this by picking it out of the pits with a needle.

The oil you are using is a traditional oil, but it is not necessarily the best protection, it is very probably based on coconut oil, which over time tends to leave a nasty residue on the blade.

Good quality gun oil will give you excellent protection, and this can be improved by keeping the blade out of contact with any cellulose material, such as wood.

I use plastic sleeves to store my keris.

A good mix for a scented oil is to use either light machine oil, or medicinal paraffin as a 50% base, and add sandalwood oil @ 45% and kenanga oil @ 5%. The percentages are not critical, and neither is the sandalwood and kananga oil, you can use rose oil, jasmine oil, or any other strongly scented oil that you prefer.

As to frequency of oil application. I have many blades which I have not oiled in years, and I live in a marine climate, 25 meters or so from salt water. The essence of preservation is to do it right in the first place, and it is essential to keep blades away from contact with cellulose materials --- paper, cardboard, wood etc.

Marcokeris · 1st January 2012, 03:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ivoke

http://silat-melayu.blogspot.com/200...and-keris.html

how to make a keris stand up

Happy Newyear

Of course... "tricks (IMO) are: patiente, balance and TRY TO INCREASE THE BEARING SURFACE OF THE BLADE.

30th December 2011, 10:24 PM	#2
Azman Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 15	Marco, If it is a trick, then this act should also be possible for any other forms of dagger like weapons. It would be interesting to make this comparison. David, I know...it's amazing ins't it. This is where science and mystic converge. I cannot understand how could this happen as it defies the law of physics. With an offset to neutral axis, the CG remains perfectly balance. Once the CG is perfectly balance, it will stand. This can be proven by the coke can trick. This is achieved by adjusting the water content in the coke can to a perfect half volume of the can. You can try this too. Now if this happen to the keris than it's either sheer luck or the empu is so brilliant to forge and hammer the steel in a perfectly balance CG. May be possible in those days... Thank you Jean, I kind of suspected this to be blarak ngirid pattern but they don't really look alike. I suppose each one is unique based on the condition and empu that did the work. Any chance to get the views on my earlier questions on empu and tangguh Cheers, Azman Attached Images Last edited by Azman; 30th December 2011 at 10:35 PM.

31st December 2011, 05:16 AM	#5
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	Very nicely put David. I will not comment on Azman's keris, because I do not have it in my hand, and my opinions formed from the photos could well be incorrect. However, here are a couple of photos of a a blade that bears some very strong similarities to Azman's keris, and I have had this keris in my hand. It is current era Madura, last half of the 20th century, it is very strong on artistic merit, but it does not go back to the times when it could be dignified with attribution to a named empu. It can be given a tangguh: kamardikan, that is, the period following Indonesian independence. Attached Images

30th December 2011, 07:33 PM	#1
ivoke Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 20	the carpet, try it on a sheet of glas, much more difficult.

31st December 2011, 03:08 PM	#6
Azman Member Join Date: Dec 2011 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 15	Great thanks David/AG for the excellent rationalization on empu and description of tangguh. In all honesty I don't understand the term empu. I thought it's a name given to a keris maker. From both of your explanation it looks like empu is a very special designatory to a very skillful person. AG, your keris pamor looks very similar to mine and the blade is in perfect condition. I wonder how do you take care of this blades it looks very new and excellently preserved. I'm really worried looking at my blade as it has sign of pitting corrosion at several location of the blade. Presently, I'm using minyak cendana (a very thick scented oil) to cover the blade monthly. I have bought this from the person who sold me this keris. It's a small bottle. It'll probably last me a year at most. Can you suggest where can I buy this or is there any other alternative. I saw a write up on this from one of our members whom has suggested using conventional lubrication oil of German product that I can't remember the name right now. Lastly, a very Happy New Year to all team members and I hope this informative site will continue thriving with knowledge of our forefathers ethnographic armament.

31st December 2011, 08:18 PM	#7
ivoke Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 20	http://silat-melayu.blogspot.com/200...and-keris.html how to make a keris stand up Happy Newyear

31st December 2011, 09:22 PM	#8
A. G. Maisey Member Join Date: May 2006 Posts: 7,015	The word "empu" or "mpu" originally was simply a term of respect (in Old Javanese), roughly equivalent the modern "tuan", or "sir" in English, however, with the development of Modern Javanese, it became a title for a master of literature or an armourer, especially one attached to a karaton ( the seat of a ruler). These karaton empus also carry a title that is in accord with rank within the karaton, as distinct from profession within the karaton. In Bahasa Indonesia it carries the sense of a master craftsmen. In Jawa it is possible for a person who is not a part of karaton hierarchy to become known as an empu, because of recognition by the common people. A keris can be made by a pandai keris ( keris craftsman), or by a common smith , a tukang besi or pande wesi. In Bali the makers of keris were and are members of the Pande Clan, they are not attached to the any ruler in the sense that Karaton empus in Jawa are, but they have the duty to respond to a call from the ruler of their area. Regarding the age of the blade which I have owned, and the blade which is owned by Azman. The blade which I have owned is perfectly finished and has not been subjected to any concentrated processing to produce the appearance of age. Based upon what I can see the photos, I believe that the blade of Azman's keris has been subjected to processing intended to give the appearance of age. I must emphasise that this processing is not carried out by a maker with any attempt to defraud nor to mislead, it is done because this is the appearance which is favoured by Javanese people. However, dealers in keris are not always particularly forthcoming with the true age of a keris. A recently made keris can very often be made of archaic iron, but all that means is that the iron is old, not the keris. Azman, I believe that if you examine the pitting in your blade under magnification, you will find that there is no active rust. If you do find active rust, I suggest that you carefully remove this by picking it out of the pits with a needle. The oil you are using is a traditional oil, but it is not necessarily the best protection, it is very probably based on coconut oil, which over time tends to leave a nasty residue on the blade. Good quality gun oil will give you excellent protection, and this can be improved by keeping the blade out of contact with any cellulose material, such as wood. I use plastic sleeves to store my keris. A good mix for a scented oil is to use either light machine oil, or medicinal paraffin as a 50% base, and add sandalwood oil @ 45% and kenanga oil @ 5%. The percentages are not critical, and neither is the sandalwood and kananga oil, you can use rose oil, jasmine oil, or any other strongly scented oil that you prefer. As to frequency of oil application. I have many blades which I have not oiled in years, and I live in a marine climate, 25 meters or so from salt water. The essence of preservation is to do it right in the first place, and it is essential to keep blades away from contact with cellulose materials --- paper, cardboard, wood etc.