A new yataghan

delor · 30th December 2011, 06:21 PM

The leather had been freshly "recutted" to make in thiner by removing half of the material. This is why the reverse side looks so clean.

Switching to another issue, I would like to talk about the blade engraving. I proposed several technics to my client :

gold "koftgari" engraving,
simple hand engraving,
acid etching

Gold was not accepted because, my client wanted the whole work to look only black and bright silver.
Acid etching was choosen because it was less expensive.

I picked up the sentence from a photo of an antique yataghan (found it it the forum archive...). I removed most of the (unwanted) ornaments and kept only the script itself. I had it checked with a friend of mine who can write arabic, and so confirmed the writing was correct, although the sentence itself was not arabic but turkish.
I covered the blade with graver varnish and reported the sentence on it, then dis the acid etching.
I don't know if acid etching was one of the "genuine" technics that were used in the old times with those blades. I never could tell from photos, as you must have a very close look to distinguish both...

ALEX · 31st December 2011, 08:12 AM

Acid etching was used on some items like armour, metal trays, etc, but not that common on arms. It was/is considered less prestigeous and desirable. As you properly stated - it is less expensivel, and would not be considered a mark of high quality. Nowadays, it is used as quick, sweat-shop mass production method as it allows multiple items to be produced at the same time.
I'd also like to comment on the placement of the script: I'd suggest placing it closer to the handle, toward the center of the blade.

delor · 31st December 2011, 09:52 AM

Yes wou're right ! I hadn't been aware of the scripting placement. I decided to center it in the "remaining" space, between the blade fitting and the tip of the blade, but it would rather be closer to the fitting and the center of the whole blade, according to most of the genuine yatagans (usually having shorter blade fitting, too).
I would really have enjoyed to choose a more "noble" engraving technic. Moreover, I am used to deal with a very good arms engraver who can do this perfectly well (eg : attached photo, the work he made for me on a pesh-kabz).
But there was no way to get this kind of work within the limits of the commission. Next time, maybe... Most of the people think that the forging of the blade and the forge welding process is going to be the most expensive part of the work, but that's not true, at least when you are experienced with the blacksmith work, this is rather quick and simple. At the opposite, the fittings, engraving, chiseling...etc can become extremely expensive and time consuming. Moreover, these technics are now far from being widely practiced as they used to be in the old times, and this also makes them very expensive.

fspic · 29th January 2012, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Acid etching was used on some items like armour, metal trays, etc, but not that common on arms. It was/is considered less prestigeous and desirable. As you properly stated - it is less expensivel, and would not be considered a mark of high quality. Nowadays, it is used as quick, sweat-shop mass production method as it allows multiple items to be produced at the same time.

Casting aside the issue of weapons and looking at the issue of illustration, acid etching is what produced some of the world's great illustrative artwork such as that by Durer. If Durer's fifteenth century plates existed in good condition today they could be used to produce much the same fine work - on some sort of paper of course.

Depending on the masking technique, acid etching could outline a project to be engraved further or prepared for koftgari - though I never heard of anyone doing it. It would be useful today to neatly outline the metal to be chiseled away, for example, from the top of a Persian barrel I have where there are raised sections with koftgari overlaid with silver. No one ever did it that way, I bet, but it could be done today. I speak as someone with recollections of limited printing and hand lithography experience. It is possible to cross-apply the techniques to hopefully simplify the job at hand.

I suppose depletion gilding could be used over an etched surface or even gold foil. I have some Indian tulwar hilts which have broad sections of silver leaf hammered on the usual scratched surface. I had an Algerian jambiya with a light gold inlay of pears on the blade. The surface wasn't scratched but simply hit with a file.

In all these things cost and time are the factors.

delor · 29th January 2012, 09:00 AM

Contemporary engraver Antonio Montejano does an outstanding work based on traditional etching technics.
A video of the engraving of Picasso's Guernica onto a spanish folfing knife : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJhmg8zH_b0

And some more "classic" work :

fspic · 29th January 2012, 03:03 PM

I suppose someone could go one step further and coat a blade with a photo sensitive solution and expose a negative through an enlarger. Then it could be acid etched and/or hand engraved. And you could be the first kid on your block to coat a blade and then expose it through a special camera like a tin type thus permitting "on the scene" image recording. That would be the next step in social and professional status seeking among engravers.

Someone desiring to compete with that could then go back to the middle ages and try to produce a camera obscura image landscape through a pin hole onto his sensitized blade. The image would then be hand chiseled. This should be the ultimate status in image reproduction and impression - until someone discovers some other way to achieve the task in a more primitive way and thus trumpet a victory.

30th December 2011, 06:21 PM	#1
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	The leather had been freshly "recutted" to make in thiner by removing half of the material. This is why the reverse side looks so clean. Switching to another issue, I would like to talk about the blade engraving. I proposed several technics to my client : gold "koftgari" engraving, simple hand engraving, acid etching Gold was not accepted because, my client wanted the whole work to look only black and bright silver. Acid etching was choosen because it was less expensive. I picked up the sentence from a photo of an antique yataghan (found it it the forum archive...). I removed most of the (unwanted) ornaments and kept only the script itself. I had it checked with a friend of mine who can write arabic, and so confirmed the writing was correct, although the sentence itself was not arabic but turkish. I covered the blade with graver varnish and reported the sentence on it, then dis the acid etching. I don't know if acid etching was one of the "genuine" technics that were used in the old times with those blades. I never could tell from photos, as you must have a very close look to distinguish both... Attached Images

31st December 2011, 09:52 AM	#3
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Yes wou're right ! I hadn't been aware of the scripting placement. I decided to center it in the "remaining" space, between the blade fitting and the tip of the blade, but it would rather be closer to the fitting and the center of the whole blade, according to most of the genuine yatagans (usually having shorter blade fitting, too). I would really have enjoyed to choose a more "noble" engraving technic. Moreover, I am used to deal with a very good arms engraver who can do this perfectly well (eg : attached photo, the work he made for me on a pesh-kabz). But there was no way to get this kind of work within the limits of the commission. Next time, maybe... Most of the people think that the forging of the blade and the forge welding process is going to be the most expensive part of the work, but that's not true, at least when you are experienced with the blacksmith work, this is rather quick and simple. At the opposite, the fittings, engraving, chiseling...etc can become extremely expensive and time consuming. Moreover, these technics are now far from being widely practiced as they used to be in the old times, and this also makes them very expensive. Attached Images

31st December 2011, 08:12 AM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Acid etching was used on some items like armour, metal trays, etc, but not that common on arms. It was/is considered less prestigeous and desirable. As you properly stated - it is less expensivel, and would not be considered a mark of high quality. Nowadays, it is used as quick, sweat-shop mass production method as it allows multiple items to be produced at the same time. I'd also like to comment on the placement of the script: I'd suggest placing it closer to the handle, toward the center of the blade.

29th January 2012, 09:00 AM	#5
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Contemporary engraver Antonio Montejano does an outstanding work based on traditional etching technics. A video of the engraving of Picasso's Guernica onto a spanish folfing knife : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJhmg8zH_b0 And some more "classic" work :

29th January 2012, 03:03 PM	#6
fspic Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 27	I suppose someone could go one step further and coat a blade with a photo sensitive solution and expose a negative through an enlarger. Then it could be acid etched and/or hand engraved. And you could be the first kid on your block to coat a blade and then expose it through a special camera like a tin type thus permitting "on the scene" image recording. That would be the next step in social and professional status seeking among engravers. Someone desiring to compete with that could then go back to the middle ages and try to produce a camera obscura image landscape through a pin hole onto his sensitized blade. The image would then be hand chiseled. This should be the ultimate status in image reproduction and impression - until someone discovers some other way to achieve the task in a more primitive way and thus trumpet a victory.