A new yataghan

delor · 28th December 2011, 10:55 PM

To Alex : thanks a lot for your explanations and photos. Both will be very useful to me.
It confirms that heavy fittings cannot fit with the required width of the wood. So I have no regrets for this time, I couldn't have managed to do it a different way. But, most important is that I exactly know by now how to proceed next time.
I feel more comfortable with the handle photos, as they show the same kind of construction as I did myself. Nevertheless, this bring a new questions : it seems to me that the holes in the tang are wider than the pins diameter. Do you confirm this ? Along with the resin (or wax / cement) used to fill the handle, it would be a good mean to avoid the breaking of the ivory scales because of the underlying steel tang dilatation or contraction due to temperature, by providing a loose junction.
Thanks for your wishes about my new project. If you agree I might come back to you (and maybe other forum members) for advices on the way !

To Jim : many thanks for welcoming me. Yes this discussion is very exactly what I was willing to find here, considering the knowledge and experience of the members.

To each member that had the kindness to comment : thanks again. Your comments are very encouraging. I try to improve myself each time I get into a new project. Will probably will have more stuff to show you in the future.

By the way, as we were speaking of scabbard, I attach some more photos of the sculpting and leather coverage process. Have to say that I did the sculpting myself but had the leather coverage done by a specialized leather craftswoman.

ALEX · 29th December 2011, 05:09 PM

Bernard,
You noticed it correctly. Yes, the holes are wider than pins, The pins are held by resin and by being flattened at both ends to hold the handle in place, so once the edges cut and loose, it is easy to dismount the handle by (gently:-) hammering the pins out (without breaking the scales:-)
As for scabbard, good work in terms of quality. as for stiching - this particular stiching is more proper for a "fantasy" sword, as it is not "historically accurate". I recommend using "cut" method instead, which is also better to use with natural leather, and not vinyl:-)

delor · 29th December 2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

You noticed it correctly. Yes, the holes are wider than pins, The pins are held by resin and by being flattened at both ends to hold the handle in place, so once the edges cut and loose, it is easy to dismount the handle by (gently:-) hammering the pins out (without breaking the scales:-)

Hello Alex,
I'm really glad to read this ! Apart from being able to dismount the handle, the main issue is that the tang lenght can change because of temperature changes (as it's made of steel...) although the ivory scales length cannot change at all. By the way, you have good chances to end with broken scales. Modern knifemakers are aware of this problem and are usually reluctant to show ivory fitted knives at outdoor knive-shows !
I have be thinking of this problem for a long period of time and found that same solution of loose riveted pins could be the best one, at least with that specific assembling. So it's a good news to discover I followed the right way, just as the ancients did

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

As for scabbard, good work in terms of quality. as for stiching - this particular stiching is more proper for a "fantasy" sword, as it is not "historically accurate". I recommend using "cut" method instead, which is also better to use with natural leather, and not vinyl:-)

Nevertheless, I confirm this is natural leather. But, of course, it is "brand new", so a bit shiny. It could have been aged, but the purpose, as you understood, was not to make a fake trying to look like an antique one.

If you don't mind, I shall post some more photos about other technical issues, as I'm sure you will certainly have more relevant remarks...

Regards,

Bernard

ALEX · 30th December 2011, 08:07 AM

Bernard,
I agree, you followed proper handle mounting technique. Well done!
I am also glad to hear that your purposes and intentions were/are "pure". This is quite noble of you and very commendable.
The reason I thought you used vynil is that I saw some whitish background/undercoat layer on one of the pictures above, and this along with its structure looked like vinyl.
By all means, please share your photos, questions and comments with us. I am sure many forumites will contribute and benefit, with as pure intentions as yours:-)

delor · 30th December 2011, 06:21 PM

The leather had been freshly "recutted" to make in thiner by removing half of the material. This is why the reverse side looks so clean.

Switching to another issue, I would like to talk about the blade engraving. I proposed several technics to my client :

gold "koftgari" engraving,
simple hand engraving,
acid etching

Gold was not accepted because, my client wanted the whole work to look only black and bright silver.
Acid etching was choosen because it was less expensive.

I picked up the sentence from a photo of an antique yataghan (found it it the forum archive...). I removed most of the (unwanted) ornaments and kept only the script itself. I had it checked with a friend of mine who can write arabic, and so confirmed the writing was correct, although the sentence itself was not arabic but turkish.
I covered the blade with graver varnish and reported the sentence on it, then dis the acid etching.
I don't know if acid etching was one of the "genuine" technics that were used in the old times with those blades. I never could tell from photos, as you must have a very close look to distinguish both...

ALEX · 31st December 2011, 08:12 AM

Acid etching was used on some items like armour, metal trays, etc, but not that common on arms. It was/is considered less prestigeous and desirable. As you properly stated - it is less expensivel, and would not be considered a mark of high quality. Nowadays, it is used as quick, sweat-shop mass production method as it allows multiple items to be produced at the same time.
I'd also like to comment on the placement of the script: I'd suggest placing it closer to the handle, toward the center of the blade.

delor · 31st December 2011, 09:52 AM

Yes wou're right ! I hadn't been aware of the scripting placement. I decided to center it in the "remaining" space, between the blade fitting and the tip of the blade, but it would rather be closer to the fitting and the center of the whole blade, according to most of the genuine yatagans (usually having shorter blade fitting, too).
I would really have enjoyed to choose a more "noble" engraving technic. Moreover, I am used to deal with a very good arms engraver who can do this perfectly well (eg : attached photo, the work he made for me on a pesh-kabz).
But there was no way to get this kind of work within the limits of the commission. Next time, maybe... Most of the people think that the forging of the blade and the forge welding process is going to be the most expensive part of the work, but that's not true, at least when you are experienced with the blacksmith work, this is rather quick and simple. At the opposite, the fittings, engraving, chiseling...etc can become extremely expensive and time consuming. Moreover, these technics are now far from being widely practiced as they used to be in the old times, and this also makes them very expensive.

fspic · 29th January 2012, 12:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

Acid etching was used on some items like armour, metal trays, etc, but not that common on arms. It was/is considered less prestigeous and desirable. As you properly stated - it is less expensivel, and would not be considered a mark of high quality. Nowadays, it is used as quick, sweat-shop mass production method as it allows multiple items to be produced at the same time.

Casting aside the issue of weapons and looking at the issue of illustration, acid etching is what produced some of the world's great illustrative artwork such as that by Durer. If Durer's fifteenth century plates existed in good condition today they could be used to produce much the same fine work - on some sort of paper of course.

Depending on the masking technique, acid etching could outline a project to be engraved further or prepared for koftgari - though I never heard of anyone doing it. It would be useful today to neatly outline the metal to be chiseled away, for example, from the top of a Persian barrel I have where there are raised sections with koftgari overlaid with silver. No one ever did it that way, I bet, but it could be done today. I speak as someone with recollections of limited printing and hand lithography experience. It is possible to cross-apply the techniques to hopefully simplify the job at hand.

I suppose depletion gilding could be used over an etched surface or even gold foil. I have some Indian tulwar hilts which have broad sections of silver leaf hammered on the usual scratched surface. I had an Algerian jambiya with a light gold inlay of pears on the blade. The surface wasn't scratched but simply hit with a file.

In all these things cost and time are the factors.

28th December 2011, 10:55 PM	#1
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	To Alex : thanks a lot for your explanations and photos. Both will be very useful to me. It confirms that heavy fittings cannot fit with the required width of the wood. So I have no regrets for this time, I couldn't have managed to do it a different way. But, most important is that I exactly know by now how to proceed next time. I feel more comfortable with the handle photos, as they show the same kind of construction as I did myself. Nevertheless, this bring a new questions : it seems to me that the holes in the tang are wider than the pins diameter. Do you confirm this ? Along with the resin (or wax / cement) used to fill the handle, it would be a good mean to avoid the breaking of the ivory scales because of the underlying steel tang dilatation or contraction due to temperature, by providing a loose junction. Thanks for your wishes about my new project. If you agree I might come back to you (and maybe other forum members) for advices on the way ! To Jim : many thanks for welcoming me. Yes this discussion is very exactly what I was willing to find here, considering the knowledge and experience of the members. To each member that had the kindness to comment : thanks again. Your comments are very encouraging. I try to improve myself each time I get into a new project. Will probably will have more stuff to show you in the future. By the way, as we were speaking of scabbard, I attach some more photos of the sculpting and leather coverage process. Have to say that I did the sculpting myself but had the leather coverage done by a specialized leather craftswoman. Attached Images Last edited by delor; 28th December 2011 at 11:06 PM.

30th December 2011, 06:21 PM	#5
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	The leather had been freshly "recutted" to make in thiner by removing half of the material. This is why the reverse side looks so clean. Switching to another issue, I would like to talk about the blade engraving. I proposed several technics to my client : gold "koftgari" engraving, simple hand engraving, acid etching Gold was not accepted because, my client wanted the whole work to look only black and bright silver. Acid etching was choosen because it was less expensive. I picked up the sentence from a photo of an antique yataghan (found it it the forum archive...). I removed most of the (unwanted) ornaments and kept only the script itself. I had it checked with a friend of mine who can write arabic, and so confirmed the writing was correct, although the sentence itself was not arabic but turkish. I covered the blade with graver varnish and reported the sentence on it, then dis the acid etching. I don't know if acid etching was one of the "genuine" technics that were used in the old times with those blades. I never could tell from photos, as you must have a very close look to distinguish both... Attached Images

31st December 2011, 09:52 AM	#7
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Yes wou're right ! I hadn't been aware of the scripting placement. I decided to center it in the "remaining" space, between the blade fitting and the tip of the blade, but it would rather be closer to the fitting and the center of the whole blade, according to most of the genuine yatagans (usually having shorter blade fitting, too). I would really have enjoyed to choose a more "noble" engraving technic. Moreover, I am used to deal with a very good arms engraver who can do this perfectly well (eg : attached photo, the work he made for me on a pesh-kabz). But there was no way to get this kind of work within the limits of the commission. Next time, maybe... Most of the people think that the forging of the blade and the forge welding process is going to be the most expensive part of the work, but that's not true, at least when you are experienced with the blacksmith work, this is rather quick and simple. At the opposite, the fittings, engraving, chiseling...etc can become extremely expensive and time consuming. Moreover, these technics are now far from being widely practiced as they used to be in the old times, and this also makes them very expensive. Attached Images

29th December 2011, 05:09 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Bernard, You noticed it correctly. Yes, the holes are wider than pins, The pins are held by resin and by being flattened at both ends to hold the handle in place, so once the edges cut and loose, it is easy to dismount the handle by (gently:-) hammering the pins out (without breaking the scales:-) As for scabbard, good work in terms of quality. as for stiching - this particular stiching is more proper for a "fantasy" sword, as it is not "historically accurate". I recommend using "cut" method instead, which is also better to use with natural leather, and not vinyl:-)

30th December 2011, 08:07 AM	#4
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Bernard, I agree, you followed proper handle mounting technique. Well done! I am also glad to hear that your purposes and intentions were/are "pure". This is quite noble of you and very commendable. The reason I thought you used vynil is that I saw some whitish background/undercoat layer on one of the pictures above, and this along with its structure looked like vinyl. By all means, please share your photos, questions and comments with us. I am sure many forumites will contribute and benefit, with as pure intentions as yours:-)

31st December 2011, 08:12 AM	#6
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Acid etching was used on some items like armour, metal trays, etc, but not that common on arms. It was/is considered less prestigeous and desirable. As you properly stated - it is less expensivel, and would not be considered a mark of high quality. Nowadays, it is used as quick, sweat-shop mass production method as it allows multiple items to be produced at the same time. I'd also like to comment on the placement of the script: I'd suggest placing it closer to the handle, toward the center of the blade.