A new yataghan

ALEX · 28th December 2011, 08:40 PM

Bernard,
The side form is right. It follows the profile of the blade. Now, lets talk about the width of the scabbard: it should be wide and round enough to take in the bolster and base parts of the handle. You achieve this by taking more wood off the inner surface of the scabbard close to its throat. The overall outer width should remain the same, but inside you just file off more wood from each insert using round file, thus increasing the diameter of inner opening to match the bolster and handle base. I attach some before-and-after-restoration pictures of original 19th Century yat scabbard. Notice the shape of its opening and inserts. the old wooden inserts are chipped at the edges and slightly bent. Still, fit the blade perfectly and it goes in and out with no effort. Also, see another yat and its handle after disassembing. Hope it helps. Good luck with your projects.

delor · 28th December 2011, 10:55 PM

To Alex : thanks a lot for your explanations and photos. Both will be very useful to me.
It confirms that heavy fittings cannot fit with the required width of the wood. So I have no regrets for this time, I couldn't have managed to do it a different way. But, most important is that I exactly know by now how to proceed next time.
I feel more comfortable with the handle photos, as they show the same kind of construction as I did myself. Nevertheless, this bring a new questions : it seems to me that the holes in the tang are wider than the pins diameter. Do you confirm this ? Along with the resin (or wax / cement) used to fill the handle, it would be a good mean to avoid the breaking of the ivory scales because of the underlying steel tang dilatation or contraction due to temperature, by providing a loose junction.
Thanks for your wishes about my new project. If you agree I might come back to you (and maybe other forum members) for advices on the way !

To Jim : many thanks for welcoming me. Yes this discussion is very exactly what I was willing to find here, considering the knowledge and experience of the members.

To each member that had the kindness to comment : thanks again. Your comments are very encouraging. I try to improve myself each time I get into a new project. Will probably will have more stuff to show you in the future.

By the way, as we were speaking of scabbard, I attach some more photos of the sculpting and leather coverage process. Have to say that I did the sculpting myself but had the leather coverage done by a specialized leather craftswoman.

ALEX · 29th December 2011, 05:09 PM

Bernard,
You noticed it correctly. Yes, the holes are wider than pins, The pins are held by resin and by being flattened at both ends to hold the handle in place, so once the edges cut and loose, it is easy to dismount the handle by (gently:-) hammering the pins out (without breaking the scales:-)
As for scabbard, good work in terms of quality. as for stiching - this particular stiching is more proper for a "fantasy" sword, as it is not "historically accurate". I recommend using "cut" method instead, which is also better to use with natural leather, and not vinyl:-)

delor · 29th December 2011, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

You noticed it correctly. Yes, the holes are wider than pins, The pins are held by resin and by being flattened at both ends to hold the handle in place, so once the edges cut and loose, it is easy to dismount the handle by (gently:-) hammering the pins out (without breaking the scales:-)

Hello Alex,
I'm really glad to read this ! Apart from being able to dismount the handle, the main issue is that the tang lenght can change because of temperature changes (as it's made of steel...) although the ivory scales length cannot change at all. By the way, you have good chances to end with broken scales. Modern knifemakers are aware of this problem and are usually reluctant to show ivory fitted knives at outdoor knive-shows !
I have be thinking of this problem for a long period of time and found that same solution of loose riveted pins could be the best one, at least with that specific assembling. So it's a good news to discover I followed the right way, just as the ancients did

Quote:

Originally Posted by ALEX

As for scabbard, good work in terms of quality. as for stiching - this particular stiching is more proper for a "fantasy" sword, as it is not "historically accurate". I recommend using "cut" method instead, which is also better to use with natural leather, and not vinyl:-)

Nevertheless, I confirm this is natural leather. But, of course, it is "brand new", so a bit shiny. It could have been aged, but the purpose, as you understood, was not to make a fake trying to look like an antique one.

If you don't mind, I shall post some more photos about other technical issues, as I'm sure you will certainly have more relevant remarks...

Regards,

Bernard

ALEX · 30th December 2011, 08:07 AM

Bernard,
I agree, you followed proper handle mounting technique. Well done!
I am also glad to hear that your purposes and intentions were/are "pure". This is quite noble of you and very commendable.
The reason I thought you used vynil is that I saw some whitish background/undercoat layer on one of the pictures above, and this along with its structure looked like vinyl.
By all means, please share your photos, questions and comments with us. I am sure many forumites will contribute and benefit, with as pure intentions as yours:-)

delor · 30th December 2011, 06:21 PM

The leather had been freshly "recutted" to make in thiner by removing half of the material. This is why the reverse side looks so clean.

Switching to another issue, I would like to talk about the blade engraving. I proposed several technics to my client :

gold "koftgari" engraving,
simple hand engraving,
acid etching

Gold was not accepted because, my client wanted the whole work to look only black and bright silver.
Acid etching was choosen because it was less expensive.

I picked up the sentence from a photo of an antique yataghan (found it it the forum archive...). I removed most of the (unwanted) ornaments and kept only the script itself. I had it checked with a friend of mine who can write arabic, and so confirmed the writing was correct, although the sentence itself was not arabic but turkish.
I covered the blade with graver varnish and reported the sentence on it, then dis the acid etching.
I don't know if acid etching was one of the "genuine" technics that were used in the old times with those blades. I never could tell from photos, as you must have a very close look to distinguish both...

ALEX · 31st December 2011, 08:12 AM

Acid etching was used on some items like armour, metal trays, etc, but not that common on arms. It was/is considered less prestigeous and desirable. As you properly stated - it is less expensivel, and would not be considered a mark of high quality. Nowadays, it is used as quick, sweat-shop mass production method as it allows multiple items to be produced at the same time.
I'd also like to comment on the placement of the script: I'd suggest placing it closer to the handle, toward the center of the blade.

28th December 2011, 08:40 PM	#1
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Bernard, The side form is right. It follows the profile of the blade. Now, lets talk about the width of the scabbard: it should be wide and round enough to take in the bolster and base parts of the handle. You achieve this by taking more wood off the inner surface of the scabbard close to its throat. The overall outer width should remain the same, but inside you just file off more wood from each insert using round file, thus increasing the diameter of inner opening to match the bolster and handle base. I attach some before-and-after-restoration pictures of original 19th Century yat scabbard. Notice the shape of its opening and inserts. the old wooden inserts are chipped at the edges and slightly bent. Still, fit the blade perfectly and it goes in and out with no effort. Also, see another yat and its handle after disassembing. Hope it helps. Good luck with your projects. Attached Images

28th December 2011, 10:55 PM	#2
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	To Alex : thanks a lot for your explanations and photos. Both will be very useful to me. It confirms that heavy fittings cannot fit with the required width of the wood. So I have no regrets for this time, I couldn't have managed to do it a different way. But, most important is that I exactly know by now how to proceed next time. I feel more comfortable with the handle photos, as they show the same kind of construction as I did myself. Nevertheless, this bring a new questions : it seems to me that the holes in the tang are wider than the pins diameter. Do you confirm this ? Along with the resin (or wax / cement) used to fill the handle, it would be a good mean to avoid the breaking of the ivory scales because of the underlying steel tang dilatation or contraction due to temperature, by providing a loose junction. Thanks for your wishes about my new project. If you agree I might come back to you (and maybe other forum members) for advices on the way ! To Jim : many thanks for welcoming me. Yes this discussion is very exactly what I was willing to find here, considering the knowledge and experience of the members. To each member that had the kindness to comment : thanks again. Your comments are very encouraging. I try to improve myself each time I get into a new project. Will probably will have more stuff to show you in the future. By the way, as we were speaking of scabbard, I attach some more photos of the sculpting and leather coverage process. Have to say that I did the sculpting myself but had the leather coverage done by a specialized leather craftswoman. Attached Images Last edited by delor; 28th December 2011 at 11:06 PM.

30th December 2011, 06:21 PM	#6
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	The leather had been freshly "recutted" to make in thiner by removing half of the material. This is why the reverse side looks so clean. Switching to another issue, I would like to talk about the blade engraving. I proposed several technics to my client : gold "koftgari" engraving, simple hand engraving, acid etching Gold was not accepted because, my client wanted the whole work to look only black and bright silver. Acid etching was choosen because it was less expensive. I picked up the sentence from a photo of an antique yataghan (found it it the forum archive...). I removed most of the (unwanted) ornaments and kept only the script itself. I had it checked with a friend of mine who can write arabic, and so confirmed the writing was correct, although the sentence itself was not arabic but turkish. I covered the blade with graver varnish and reported the sentence on it, then dis the acid etching. I don't know if acid etching was one of the "genuine" technics that were used in the old times with those blades. I never could tell from photos, as you must have a very close look to distinguish both... Attached Images

29th December 2011, 05:09 PM	#3
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Bernard, You noticed it correctly. Yes, the holes are wider than pins, The pins are held by resin and by being flattened at both ends to hold the handle in place, so once the edges cut and loose, it is easy to dismount the handle by (gently:-) hammering the pins out (without breaking the scales:-) As for scabbard, good work in terms of quality. as for stiching - this particular stiching is more proper for a "fantasy" sword, as it is not "historically accurate". I recommend using "cut" method instead, which is also better to use with natural leather, and not vinyl:-)

30th December 2011, 08:07 AM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Bernard, I agree, you followed proper handle mounting technique. Well done! I am also glad to hear that your purposes and intentions were/are "pure". This is quite noble of you and very commendable. The reason I thought you used vynil is that I saw some whitish background/undercoat layer on one of the pictures above, and this along with its structure looked like vinyl. By all means, please share your photos, questions and comments with us. I am sure many forumites will contribute and benefit, with as pure intentions as yours:-)

31st December 2011, 08:12 AM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Acid etching was used on some items like armour, metal trays, etc, but not that common on arms. It was/is considered less prestigeous and desirable. As you properly stated - it is less expensivel, and would not be considered a mark of high quality. Nowadays, it is used as quick, sweat-shop mass production method as it allows multiple items to be produced at the same time. I'd also like to comment on the placement of the script: I'd suggest placing it closer to the handle, toward the center of the blade.