A new yataghan

delor · 28th December 2011, 03:27 PM

Alex,
you are right to point out these two issues, and this is the exact difference between custom job and historical accuracy.

The fittings had to be casted, because it was the client request to get the same aspect as the one you will find with most of the modern sword / sabers. The design was taken from antique yataghans, so the global shape and general design are the same, but - as you precisely said - the object completely differs from the genuine model because the technic is not the same (this I would like to discuss later).

The scabbard design has also been a difficult issue to me. Because of the overall bending of the blade I had to make it quite large, and it makes it look something like a black sea yataghan scabbard. Of course I have noticed that genuine scabbards are usually narrower. This makes no problem when the yataghan has a straight blade, but when it has a more bended blade, I don't see how it's possible. Would there possibly be a split at the aperture, just like some others sabers ? I never saw this on a yataghan scabbard, but couldn't examine much anyway... so if you have any clues or explanations on this issue, I would greatly appreciate !

Some words about the historical accuracy and the use of one technic or another. My opinion is that the only way to reach (or should I say try to reach) historical accuracy, is to keep on using the exact same technics as those ancient craftsmen used to. Only then, with the same tools, and trying to reach the same skill, sometimes you see that the result is going to be OK, and you start feeling you're walking the same path the ancestors did.
At the opposite, using different technics will bring you to some different point which might sometimes be close to the genuine object. But always the "flavour" will be different, and an experienced eye will always notice the differences.

Thank you very much for your critical review. This is exactly what I was looking for by posting in this forum. I hope you will be so kind to answer my questions about the scabbard design, if you can help...
... and I also hope that I will have the opportunity to show you some more historically accurate work in the coming monthes (by the way, I might have two commissions planned for 2012 : a shaska and a kindjal, with chiseled / embossing traditional work on both of them).

Kind regards,
Bernard

PS : I apologize for my english speaking which might look a bit "frenchy". Hope it remains understandable...at least !

ALEX · 28th December 2011, 03:47 PM

Bernard,
A classical Yataghan's scabbard should be of full/round, oval-like shape to accomodate approximately 1/4 of the handle length when the blade is fully inserted. The scabbard's profile should resemble the profile of the blade, but be slightly wider at the throat side to fit the blade's tip upon insertion. I may have some pictures of original yat scabbard, disassembled. will post later.

delor · 28th December 2011, 04:07 PM

Thanks Alex,
yes, I made it narrower at the throat side because I felt it would have been really too large to accomotate the handle itself. I think this bring us back to the point of having casted parts : only embossed metalwork would allow an overall thiner aspect and would make possible the genuine scabbard design, because the wood thickness requirement would be less.

Still remains to me the question of the general scabbard bending. Could you please have a look at the attached photos and tell me if it looks OK for you or if you see something that should have been made differently ?
Of course your own photos are more than welcome. Will be very profitable to me as scabbard is not what photos usually focus on.

Jim McDougall · 28th December 2011, 04:40 PM

This is absolutely astonishingly beautiful craftmanship Bernard, and thank you so much for sharing the developing work along with your thoughts, ideas and steps. It is fascinating to learn more on how this weapon was produced and the details on things like which type of ivory to use, something I would not have even thought of.

Alex thank you for the valuable input as well, and as Bernard has noted, this is exactly what was hoped for...to add historical context to this weapon which is a masterfully produced interpretation of the original forms. As an arms historian I admit I have always had reservations about 'reproductions' and 'replicas' as they are clearly not actual vintage items, however this has given me the opportunity to truly appreciate the work presented in these.

Absolutely outstanding, and well presented Bernard, with excellent discussion!
Thank you guys,

All best regards,
Jim

ALEX · 28th December 2011, 08:40 PM

Bernard,
The side form is right. It follows the profile of the blade. Now, lets talk about the width of the scabbard: it should be wide and round enough to take in the bolster and base parts of the handle. You achieve this by taking more wood off the inner surface of the scabbard close to its throat. The overall outer width should remain the same, but inside you just file off more wood from each insert using round file, thus increasing the diameter of inner opening to match the bolster and handle base. I attach some before-and-after-restoration pictures of original 19th Century yat scabbard. Notice the shape of its opening and inserts. the old wooden inserts are chipped at the edges and slightly bent. Still, fit the blade perfectly and it goes in and out with no effort. Also, see another yat and its handle after disassembing. Hope it helps. Good luck with your projects.

delor · 28th December 2011, 10:55 PM

To Alex : thanks a lot for your explanations and photos. Both will be very useful to me.
It confirms that heavy fittings cannot fit with the required width of the wood. So I have no regrets for this time, I couldn't have managed to do it a different way. But, most important is that I exactly know by now how to proceed next time.
I feel more comfortable with the handle photos, as they show the same kind of construction as I did myself. Nevertheless, this bring a new questions : it seems to me that the holes in the tang are wider than the pins diameter. Do you confirm this ? Along with the resin (or wax / cement) used to fill the handle, it would be a good mean to avoid the breaking of the ivory scales because of the underlying steel tang dilatation or contraction due to temperature, by providing a loose junction.
Thanks for your wishes about my new project. If you agree I might come back to you (and maybe other forum members) for advices on the way !

To Jim : many thanks for welcoming me. Yes this discussion is very exactly what I was willing to find here, considering the knowledge and experience of the members.

To each member that had the kindness to comment : thanks again. Your comments are very encouraging. I try to improve myself each time I get into a new project. Will probably will have more stuff to show you in the future.

By the way, as we were speaking of scabbard, I attach some more photos of the sculpting and leather coverage process. Have to say that I did the sculpting myself but had the leather coverage done by a specialized leather craftswoman.

ALEX · 29th December 2011, 05:09 PM

Bernard,
You noticed it correctly. Yes, the holes are wider than pins, The pins are held by resin and by being flattened at both ends to hold the handle in place, so once the edges cut and loose, it is easy to dismount the handle by (gently:-) hammering the pins out (without breaking the scales:-)
As for scabbard, good work in terms of quality. as for stiching - this particular stiching is more proper for a "fantasy" sword, as it is not "historically accurate". I recommend using "cut" method instead, which is also better to use with natural leather, and not vinyl:-)

Dom · 2nd February 2012, 05:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

PS : I apologize for my english speaking which might look a bit "frenchy". Hope it remains understandable...at least !

Hi Bernard
don't be worry about your English ...
our friends here, are customary now to read me, since years

anyway, I'm taking the opportunity to congratulate you, for your amazing acheivement,
it's worthy of a "Chef d'oeuvre" to reach the rank of "Master"

toutes mes félicitations les plus sincères

à +

Dom

ariel · 4th February 2012, 01:44 PM

Delor,
I can only shake my head in astonishment...
You did a marvelous job, and with all the points astutely noticed by Alex, this is an example of a wonderful craftsmanship. My hat is off to you!!!

On the other hand, the part I do not get is the wish of the customer to have a modern ( although highly artistic) replica of a yataghan. I have no idea how much it cost him ( you've earned every penny) and how long he had to wait for the finished product, but I bet that for half the price he could have bought himself an excellent genuine and truly old one. No matter how great is the craftsmanship, the aura of history cannot be recreated.

I am proud of you, but cannot understand him.

fspic · 4th February 2012, 03:24 PM

Well, it won't be used in reenactments of the Siege of Vienna, that's for sure! On the other hand he probably wanted a modern custom show knife based upon that form.

delor · 4th February 2012, 03:28 PM

Dom, thank you very much ...and merci beaucoup !
I'm far from being a "master" as were some of the craftsmen of the ancient times, but it's the goal I'm trying to reach...

Ariel, thanks a lot. I do understand your comments, and I'm not trying to recreate the "aura" of genuire arms, that would be very difficult anyway, and certainly not respectable trying to fool people by making fake copies.
You should think of the customer as somebody who wishes to have a brand new and beautiful sword. And he wants it to be custom made, exactly fitting his will. He's not different from the customer who bought the same one, a few centuries ago. He's also aware of the History and traditions, but he is not a collector of antique artefacts. He likes beautiful old clothes but wants a new habit for himself...

fspic, you get it..

And of course this is a unique chance for me, trying to work just as the ancient craftsman did ! It feels like shaking hands with him...so my only wish is that my yatagan could look the same in XXIIIth century as the one you're collecting today !

ariel · 5th February 2012, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by delor

And of course this is a unique chance for me, trying to work just as the ancient craftsman did ! It feels like shaking hands with him

Well said! You did shake hands with Ahmet Tekelu and did it with pride and honor.

As to the buyer.... Well, people collect what they want and there is no accounting for the taste. I personally would very much prefer a modest yataghan from the Siege of Vienna to a lavish contemporary one. But this is just my preference :-)

Great job!

delor · 5th February 2012, 09:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ariel

Well said! You did shake hands with Ahmet Tekelu and did it with pride and honor.

You are very flattering. Thank you very much. I'd rather say that being his apprentice (if some time-machine could help) would be a huge honor...

About the buyers : well, we all should be glad that buyers in those ancient times bought brand new swords. Otherwise,we would have nothing to collect by now !

Greetings,
Bernard

fspic · 5th February 2012, 02:53 PM

Quote:

"...
As to the buyer.... Well, people collect what they want and there is no accounting for the taste. I personally would very much prefer a modest yataghan from the Siege of Vienna to a lavish contemporary one..."
Great job!

There is a well established custom knife making culture in America most of which makes traditional hunting or military knives. In the last ten or twelve years custom makers mastered the process of Damascus pattern manufacture. Others have produced wootz. The University of Illinois at Urbana has a well developed colony of blacksmiths who do fine pattern or wootz ironwork. It may be part of a metallurgical course.

Dr. Figiel told me some years ago that he was impressed by the work of the Pendray organization in their experimentation with wootz pattern alloys. However I believe they were studying industrial applications and wear qualities.

As is obvious there is also a well developed commercial market for fantasy knives which is a low class garish market. In the most dignified form it will provide weapons for movies. What use there is for the rest of it (look at eBay) I don't know. In the case at hand it is possible for a wealthy client to merge honest historical artistry in metalwork with his own personal fantasies.
Imagine such a party in his custom octagon shaped play room with huge plasma wall screens on each wall playing the battle scenes from the Three Hundred defending the pass against the Persians. There he is, naked with high black leather boots, with embroidered sash holding his gold and coral inlaid scabbard, slashing and chopping at the oncoming hordes and screaming battle commands and hurling oaths. At the end of the movie all the screens have been chopped into slivers of glass and our hero is laying exhausted and sweating on the floor with his precious yataghan cradled in his arms. Upon recovery he will consult his catalogs of weapons collections, comission a new blade and order eight new wall screens.

This sort of clientele will keep the high end edged weapons market alive just as it did over the centuries - the difference being they didn't need wall screens in olden times.

ThePepperSkull · 24th May 2012, 04:02 PM

How have I not seen this yet?

I myself am an enthusiast of modern-made pieces. This one in particular is very lovely. The ivory and silver combination is wonderful.

28th December 2011, 04:07 PM	#3
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Thanks Alex, yes, I made it narrower at the throat side because I felt it would have been really too large to accomotate the handle itself. I think this bring us back to the point of having casted parts : only embossed metalwork would allow an overall thiner aspect and would make possible the genuine scabbard design, because the wood thickness requirement would be less. Still remains to me the question of the general scabbard bending. Could you please have a look at the attached photos and tell me if it looks OK for you or if you see something that should have been made differently ? Of course your own photos are more than welcome. Will be very profitable to me as scabbard is not what photos usually focus on. Attached Images

28th December 2011, 08:40 PM	#5
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Bernard, The side form is right. It follows the profile of the blade. Now, lets talk about the width of the scabbard: it should be wide and round enough to take in the bolster and base parts of the handle. You achieve this by taking more wood off the inner surface of the scabbard close to its throat. The overall outer width should remain the same, but inside you just file off more wood from each insert using round file, thus increasing the diameter of inner opening to match the bolster and handle base. I attach some before-and-after-restoration pictures of original 19th Century yat scabbard. Notice the shape of its opening and inserts. the old wooden inserts are chipped at the edges and slightly bent. Still, fit the blade perfectly and it goes in and out with no effort. Also, see another yat and its handle after disassembing. Hope it helps. Good luck with your projects. Attached Images

28th December 2011, 10:55 PM	#6
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	To Alex : thanks a lot for your explanations and photos. Both will be very useful to me. It confirms that heavy fittings cannot fit with the required width of the wood. So I have no regrets for this time, I couldn't have managed to do it a different way. But, most important is that I exactly know by now how to proceed next time. I feel more comfortable with the handle photos, as they show the same kind of construction as I did myself. Nevertheless, this bring a new questions : it seems to me that the holes in the tang are wider than the pins diameter. Do you confirm this ? Along with the resin (or wax / cement) used to fill the handle, it would be a good mean to avoid the breaking of the ivory scales because of the underlying steel tang dilatation or contraction due to temperature, by providing a loose junction. Thanks for your wishes about my new project. If you agree I might come back to you (and maybe other forum members) for advices on the way ! To Jim : many thanks for welcoming me. Yes this discussion is very exactly what I was willing to find here, considering the knowledge and experience of the members. To each member that had the kindness to comment : thanks again. Your comments are very encouraging. I try to improve myself each time I get into a new project. Will probably will have more stuff to show you in the future. By the way, as we were speaking of scabbard, I attach some more photos of the sculpting and leather coverage process. Have to say that I did the sculpting myself but had the leather coverage done by a specialized leather craftswoman. Attached Images Last edited by delor; 28th December 2011 at 11:06 PM.

28th December 2011, 03:27 PM	#1
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Alex, you are right to point out these two issues, and this is the exact difference between custom job and historical accuracy. The fittings had to be casted, because it was the client request to get the same aspect as the one you will find with most of the modern sword / sabers. The design was taken from antique yataghans, so the global shape and general design are the same, but - as you precisely said - the object completely differs from the genuine model because the technic is not the same (this I would like to discuss later). The scabbard design has also been a difficult issue to me. Because of the overall bending of the blade I had to make it quite large, and it makes it look something like a black sea yataghan scabbard. Of course I have noticed that genuine scabbards are usually narrower. This makes no problem when the yataghan has a straight blade, but when it has a more bended blade, I don't see how it's possible. Would there possibly be a split at the aperture, just like some others sabers ? I never saw this on a yataghan scabbard, but couldn't examine much anyway... so if you have any clues or explanations on this issue, I would greatly appreciate ! Some words about the historical accuracy and the use of one technic or another. My opinion is that the only way to reach (or should I say try to reach) historical accuracy, is to keep on using the exact same technics as those ancient craftsmen used to. Only then, with the same tools, and trying to reach the same skill, sometimes you see that the result is going to be OK, and you start feeling you're walking the same path the ancestors did. At the opposite, using different technics will bring you to some different point which might sometimes be close to the genuine object. But always the "flavour" will be different, and an experienced eye will always notice the differences. Thank you very much for your critical review. This is exactly what I was looking for by posting in this forum. I hope you will be so kind to answer my questions about the scabbard design, if you can help... ... and I also hope that I will have the opportunity to show you some more historically accurate work in the coming monthes (by the way, I might have two commissions planned for 2012 : a shaska and a kindjal, with chiseled / embossing traditional work on both of them). Kind regards, Bernard PS : I apologize for my english speaking which might look a bit "frenchy". Hope it remains understandable...at least !

28th December 2011, 03:47 PM	#2
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Bernard, A classical Yataghan's scabbard should be of full/round, oval-like shape to accomodate approximately 1/4 of the handle length when the blade is fully inserted. The scabbard's profile should resemble the profile of the blade, but be slightly wider at the throat side to fit the blade's tip upon insertion. I may have some pictures of original yat scabbard, disassembled. will post later.

28th December 2011, 04:40 PM	#4
Jim McDougall Arms Historian Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Route 66 Posts: 10,190	This is absolutely astonishingly beautiful craftmanship Bernard, and thank you so much for sharing the developing work along with your thoughts, ideas and steps. It is fascinating to learn more on how this weapon was produced and the details on things like which type of ivory to use, something I would not have even thought of. Alex thank you for the valuable input as well, and as Bernard has noted, this is exactly what was hoped for...to add historical context to this weapon which is a masterfully produced interpretation of the original forms. As an arms historian I admit I have always had reservations about 'reproductions' and 'replicas' as they are clearly not actual vintage items, however this has given me the opportunity to truly appreciate the work presented in these. Absolutely outstanding, and well presented Bernard, with excellent discussion! Thank you guys, All best regards, Jim

29th December 2011, 05:09 PM	#7
ALEX Member Join Date: Jan 2006 Posts: 936	Bernard, You noticed it correctly. Yes, the holes are wider than pins, The pins are held by resin and by being flattened at both ends to hold the handle in place, so once the edges cut and loose, it is easy to dismount the handle by (gently:-) hammering the pins out (without breaking the scales:-) As for scabbard, good work in terms of quality. as for stiching - this particular stiching is more proper for a "fantasy" sword, as it is not "historically accurate". I recommend using "cut" method instead, which is also better to use with natural leather, and not vinyl:-)

4th February 2012, 01:44 PM	#9
ariel Member Join Date: Dec 2004 Location: Ann Arbor, MI Posts: 5,503	Delor, I can only shake my head in astonishment... You did a marvelous job, and with all the points astutely noticed by Alex, this is an example of a wonderful craftsmanship. My hat is off to you!!! On the other hand, the part I do not get is the wish of the customer to have a modern ( although highly artistic) replica of a yataghan. I have no idea how much it cost him ( you've earned every penny) and how long he had to wait for the finished product, but I bet that for half the price he could have bought himself an excellent genuine and truly old one. No matter how great is the craftsmanship, the aura of history cannot be recreated. I am proud of you, but cannot understand him.

4th February 2012, 03:24 PM	#10
fspic Member Join Date: May 2010 Posts: 27	Well, it won't be used in reenactments of the Siege of Vienna, that's for sure! On the other hand he probably wanted a modern custom show knife based upon that form.

4th February 2012, 03:28 PM	#11
delor Member Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Marseille - France Posts: 73	Dom, thank you very much ...and merci beaucoup ! I'm far from being a "master" as were some of the craftsmen of the ancient times, but it's the goal I'm trying to reach... Ariel, thanks a lot. I do understand your comments, and I'm not trying to recreate the "aura" of genuire arms, that would be very difficult anyway, and certainly not respectable trying to fool people by making fake copies. You should think of the customer as somebody who wishes to have a brand new and beautiful sword. And he wants it to be custom made, exactly fitting his will. He's not different from the customer who bought the same one, a few centuries ago. He's also aware of the History and traditions, but he is not a collector of antique artefacts. He likes beautiful old clothes but wants a new habit for himself... fspic, you get it.. And of course this is a unique chance for me, trying to work just as the ancient craftsman did ! It feels like shaking hands with him...so my only wish is that my yatagan could look the same in XXIIIth century as the one you're collecting today !

24th May 2012, 04:02 PM	#15
ThePepperSkull Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Posts: 338	How have I not seen this yet? I myself am an enthusiast of modern-made pieces. This one in particular is very lovely. The ivory and silver combination is wonderful.